the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I recently came across this interesting post by Graham. It's one of those topics that has been discussed a lot over the years, and seems to be a given in CMA, however, there are also masters and systems which break this rule in practice. Having trained in schools that had differing beliefs on this topic, I have come to my own feelings on this subject, but also find the strict rule of not letting knees pass the toes is a lot more nuanced and dependent on certain circumstances of things like the alignment of the rest of the body, where the body weight is distributed etc.

I'm curious to hear the thoughts of others.

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2021/04/2 ... hould-you/

In order to generate momentum, you have to:

- Move your gravity center to be outside of your base.
- Allow the gravity to pull your body forward.
- You then regain your balance back.

You do this:



because you want to achieve this:

His knees go over his toes.

Front knees past toes in a bow stance = your taijiquan is probably a little shaky in that position

Other than that, I mean if your body can do it, do it, right?

IMO the rule is complete BS. The knee is just like any other joint in the body. It would be like saying: never extend your arm past 70 degrees or smth. Of course completely extending the knees/elbows leaves one vulnerable to locks and such, but having to lock out a joint usually comes from lacking footwork. It's ok if it happens, just that it shouldn't be your goal to lock out imo.

If you don't allow your knees freedom, you couldn't even go into the really low stances. It's easy to damage the knees by being overly ambitious tho.

Maybe in the beginning, never letting knees go past toes can help to get a feeling for smth different happening in the body than just throwing your weight around or muscling out of a situation. Like hand to foot connection and other things. But it's basically always the same: relax, connect, relax, connect,...

Also Windy, I caught your reply, hehe.

Quigga wrote:IMO the rule is complete BS. The knee is just like any other joint in the body. It would be like saying: never extend your arm past 70 degrees or smth. Of course completely extending the knees/elbows leaves one vulnerable to locks and such, but having to lock out a joint usually comes from lacking footwork. It's ok if it happens, just that it shouldn't be your goal to lock out imo.

If you don't allow your knees freedom, you couldn't even go into the really low stances. It's easy to damage the knees by being overly ambitious tho.

Maybe in the beginning, never letting knees go past toes can help to get a feeling for smth different happening in the body than just throwing your weight around or muscling out of a situation. Like hand to foot connection and other things. But it's basically always the same: relax, connect, relax, connect,...

Also Windy, I caught your reply, hehe.

Practice how you like. People that are much better at Taijiquan with a much deeper understanding than either of us have made it clear that when our knee goes past the front toe in a bow stance it saps the power from your movement. The rear leg, sure. The front leg, no, bad structure.

Hey origami I can't see your linked website? Is it down or smth?

As for the rule - depends on what you want to focus on. Saying it's complete BS was a tad too far, sorry.

Quigga wrote:Hey origami I can't see your linked website? Is it down or smth?

As for the rule - depends on what you want to focus on. Saying it's complete BS was a tad too far, sorry.

I don't know, it's hosted here locally so could be having trouble. Stupid spectrum. Still in build out

And who would that be origami? Speak for yourself

johnwang wrote:In order to generate momentum, you have to:

- Move your gravity center to be outside of your base.
- Allow the gravity to pull your body forward.
- You then regain your balance back.

That sounds great for a wrestling environment, but it just seems like a horrible idea otherwise to let your mass drag you around like that.

His knees go over the toes both forward and backward. Quite noticably so. I really like his Tai Chi.

Quigga wrote:

His knees go over the toes both forward and backward. Quite noticably so. I really like his Tai Chi.

I don't see his knees going past his front toe in a bow stance in that video.

Can you really throw well if you don't shift your center of weight massively? Or throw it out and then let it drag you somewhere else? Momentum?

As long as you know where you end up with it and don't do it blindly, it should be ok.

Someone once tried throwing me by holding his hands around my belly, grasping his hands behind me. He lifted me upwards and rotated. I made myself light, stepped around 180 degrees following him, then completed the throw carrying his momentum using the same motion he did

We ended up on the hard floor instead of the gym mat with me on top of him. I felt bad for that, but he was alright.

Quigga wrote:IMO the rule is complete BS. The knee is just like any other joint in the body. It would be like saying: never extend your arm past 70 degrees or smth. Of course completely extending the knees/elbows leaves one vulnerable to locks and such, but having to lock out a joint usually comes from lacking footwork. It's ok if it happens, just that it shouldn't be your goal to lock out imo.

If you don't allow your knees freedom, you couldn't even go into the really low stances. It's easy to damage the knees by being overly ambitious tho.

Maybe in the beginning, never letting knees go past toes can help to get a feeling for smth different happening in the body than just throwing your weight around or muscling out of a situation. Like hand to foot connection and other things. But it's basically always the same: relax, connect, relax, connect,...

Also Windy, I caught your reply, hehe.

one might also understand the concept of hand not extended beyond the toes ,
might take awhile to work out the why and how...

Go though this with people I work with all the time,,,
Alignment's, very strict rule set in beginning...Once outer alignments understood inner ones developed
both harmonized, depending on the theory one follows...not much of an issue....

The new Adam thread, talking sinking the elbow...

Its not really about the position of elbow,
as to what is meant by sinking or not...

again depending on the "theory" that one follows...

I'm obviously still a super beginner cough

Very much aware that sinking the elbow isn't only about the physical position

Hands and toes, gotta play with that before I say something