"Never let your knees go over your toes... or should you?"

[marvin8]

Not really a question... I was just bringing up the topic, cause I found Graham's blog post interesting.

I agree low squats are good for health. I was making the distinction between a low squat where the torso matches the angle of the shins (as in Bao's video post, and the screen shot you took), vs if the torso was up right.

You're right that a front weighted bow arrow stance with the knee over the toes would not be good for martial purposes, however some people train their form that way as a way in condition and increase leg strength. Not saying that's how I would do it, but some people do.

Per the article "Bow Stance of Traditional Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan," the angle of an individual's torso would allow:

The weight is 60% on the front leg and 40% on the back leg. The left knee moves forward following the direction of the front toes and does not pass the toes. Weight should be centered over the Bubbling Well (Yong Quan) and both feet are rooted. Figure 1 and Figure 2.

The body shape for movements with Bow Stance Footwork generally require the upper body to incline slightly in the forward direction, so it leans at the same angle as the back leg. There are three exceptions in which the torso is straight up and down when using Bow Stance footwork: Left Ward off, Single Whip, and Fan Through the Back.

[johnwang]

Working from failure, and all that good stuff.

Should one always

1. remains his balance 24-7?
2. tries to lose balance and then tries to regain daily?

For training, I believe 1 < 2.

The turtle has the bast static balance. If you flip it over, it will take a long time to flip back. We don't want to train like turtle.



We want to train like cat.

[Mrwawa]

Losing and regaining BALANCE is exactly what we do in push hands practice. (maybe define what you mean by rooting if you want to talk about that more)

There are

- static rooting - never move your gravity center to be ouside of your base.
- dynamic rooting - move gravity center outside of your base, you then move your base to recovery it.

The dynamic rooting require more footwork. It will give you more benefit in the long run.

If you are used to train dynamic rooting, your chance of falling down during old age will be very small.

This doesn't have anything to do with the knees or internal martial arts. I see one guy pushing another and the other guy reacting with force that is overwhelmed.

[Fubo]

Not really a question... I was just bringing up the topic, cause I found Graham's blog post interesting.

I agree low squats are good for health. I was making the distinction between a low squat where the torso matches the angle of the shins (as in Bao's video post, and the screen shot you took), vs if the torso was up right.

You're right that a front weighted bow arrow stance with the knee over the toes would not be good for martial purposes, however some people train their form that way as a way in condition and increase leg strength. Not saying that's how I would do it, but some people do.

Per the article "Bow Stance of Traditional Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan," the angle of an individual's torso would allow:

The weight is 60% on the front leg and 40% on the back leg. The left knee moves forward following the direction of the front toes and does not pass the toes. Weight should be centered over the Bubbling Well (Yong Quan) and both feet are rooted. Figure 1 and Figure 2.

The body shape for movements with Bow Stance Footwork generally require the upper body to incline slightly in the forward direction, so it leans at the same angle as the back leg. There are three exceptions in which the torso is straight up and down when using Bow Stance footwork: Left Ward off, Single Whip, and Fan Through the Back.

I know that in Yang Jun's lineage they adhere to the knee doesn't pass the toe principle (in those postures), where as some other lineages don't follow that principle.

[Fubo]

Losing and regaining BALANCE is exactly what we do in push hands practice. (maybe define what you mean by rooting if you want to talk about that more)

There are

- static rooting - never move your gravity center to be ouside of your base.
- dynamic rooting - move gravity center outside of your base, you then move your base to recovery it.

The dynamic rooting require more footwork. It will give you more benefit in the long run.

If you are used to train dynamic rooting, your chance of falling down during old age will be very small.

John, perhaps a better question to ask you is, in Shuai Jiao's 13 Taibo, are any of the static postures held where the knees are pass the toes, and the torso is perpendicular to the ground?

Being that your clip is of someone in motion, even though the knee is over the toe (if we were to freeze frame), the knee is not really bearing any weight on it, because it's not a static posture. I think we need to make the distinction between the "knees over toes" idea between static postures like zhan zhuang, and being in motion like this or Bagua circle walking, because the knee passes the toe in circle walking (when the torso is upright), and it's fine, because the torso's weight is never allowed to settle on the supporting leg for an extended amount of time, and the forward pushing out the knee experiences is relieved by the continuous stepping.

[BruceP]

...in Shuai Jiao's 13 Taibo, are any of the static postures held where the knees are pass the toes, and the torso is perpendicular to the ground?

Child Prays

As an aside, I posted some pics of my Northern SJ postures on EF once and John suggested I bend my knee more in Swallow Soars/Searching Sea, and, although the torso isn't perpendicular (tipped forward more than 45 degrees), the additional bending put the knee over the toes. It felt much more stable and it's had no adverse effects on my knees 20 years on..

[BruceP]

Working from failure, and all that good stuff.

Should one always

1. remains his balance 24-7?
2. tries to lose balance and then tries to regain daily?

For training, I believe 1 < 2.

The turtle has the bast static balance. If you flip it over, it will take a long time to flip back. We don't want to train like turtle.



We want to train like cat.

To fast-track the cultivation of mental resolve and physical adroitness, training tortoise is better than training for success. The turtle is as much a part of tjq being a recovery method as the cat.

[origami_itto]

Working from failure, and all that good stuff.

Should one always

1. remains his balance 24-7?
2. tries to lose balance and then tries to regain daily?

For training, I believe 1 < 2.

This is the essence of "investing in loss" in Push Hands. You work on doing it right and you get pushed out a lot. If you start trying to keep from getting pushed out by just doing whatever works, you won't ever get the real skill. You have to keep trying to do it right, and losing, and eventually you get it right, and you lose less, and you keep working on moving that slider.

[Fubo]

...in Shuai Jiao's 13 Taibo, are any of the static postures held where the knees are pass the toes, and the torso is perpendicular to the ground?

Child Prays

As an aside, I posted some pics of my Northern SJ postures on EF once and John suggested I bend my knee more in Swallow Soars/Searching Sea, and, although the torso isn't perpendicular (tipped forward more than 45 degrees), the additional bending put the knee over the toes. It felt much more stable and it's had no adverse effects on my knees 20 years on..

... which reinforces my point that keep the torso at the same angle as the shin (the 45 degrees you mentioned), balances the forces both in front of the knee and behind the torso, to allow you to sink lower while maintaining structural integrity and knee health. I think if you were to train that with your torso perfectly perpendicular to the, you'd feel different results after 20 years.

[johnwang]

John, perhaps a better question to ask you is, in Shuai Jiao's 13 Taibo, are any of the static postures held where the knees are pass the toes, and the torso is perpendicular to the ground?

Try to do "羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) - Lou Han looks at sky" and do not allow your knee to pass your toes, and see if it's possibile or not. I truly don't think it's possible. Why do you want to do this for? May be to dodge a knife that's thrown toward your chest.



Other 13 Tai bo static postures:



If you want to use your shin bite to take your opponent down, you have to drop your knee on the ground (knee pass over toes). In other words, if you want to perform a certain task, will you allow certain Taiji rule to prevent you from doing it?



Another example:

[LaoDan]

Be careful of dogma! If one knows a rule but does not know its intended purpose, then one’s interpretation of whether or not it is correct can be misleading.

While I am not certain of other teaching lineages, my understanding is that the knee should not go past the forward knee in bow and arrow stance due to concerns with maintenance of balance after extending one’s arm (striking or pushing with the fist or hand, for instance) if that arm is grabbed and pulled. I teach that it is not a hard-set rule (but it is a rough guideline); that as long as one can maintain one’s ability to resist being uncontrollably pulled forward if someone grabbed and pulled that extended arm, then that degree of bend for the front knee is appropriate (and it can change somewhat depending on other body factors, like how low is the person’s stance, how upright or inclined is their torso, their leg strength, old injuries…).

Note: I also teach that when using a jian one can extend farther (“violating” the principle) since the opponent cannot safely grab and pull on a sharp sword. Likewise, I also teach that when thrusting with a staff one often does not shift even as far as one does during weaponless sparring since the leverage gained when an opponent grabs and pulls on one’s staff can lead to being off-balanced if one shifts forward even as far as vertically above the forward toes.

My understanding is that it is not intended to apply to knee conditioning, or to all martial applications (e.g., shin bite)…

[johnwang]

My understanding is that it is not intended to apply to knee conditioning, or to all martial applications (e.g., shin bite)…

"Never let your knees to go over your toes." Is this true, or false?

Disproof by counterexample is the technique in mathematics where a statement is shown to be wrong by finding a single example for when it is not satisfied. Not surprisingly, disproof is the opposite of proof so instead of showing that something is true, we must show that it is false.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=Disproof+ ... ca8b4581bc

[Fubo]

John, perhaps a better question to ask you is, in Shuai Jiao's 13 Taibo, are any of the static postures held where the knees are pass the toes, and the torso is perpendicular to the ground?

Try to do "羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) - Lou Han looks at sky" and do not allow your knee to pass your toes, and see if it's possibile or not. I truly don't think it's possible. Why do you want to do this for? May be to dodge a knife that's thrown toward your chest.



Other 13 Tai bo static postures:



If you want to use your shin bite to take your opponent down, you have to drop your knee on the ground (knee pass over toes). In other words, if you want to perform a certain task, will you allow certain Taiji rule to prevent you from doing it?



Just to be clear, I think there are times when having the knees pass the toes is fine and necessary (such are your examples), and there are times when it weakens the structure and damages the knees... I don't think it's a static rule.



Another example:

The examples you gave are either examples of having a counter weight to the knees, as in the first example, or the body in a dropping motion, which is not putting continuous pressure on the knees... neither of which are what the "knees over toes" requirement are referring too.

The kind of examples I'm talking about are when the torso is perpendicular to the ground, in static postures, where there is no counter weight to the knees pushing out in front, like this:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Zha ... _334680595

Or this: Scroll down to Figure 1-B

https://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/bajipigua.htm

[windwalker]

[johnwang]

The kind of examples I'm talking about are when the torso is perpendicular to the ground, in static postures, where there is no counter weight to the knees pushing out in front,

If you move your knee beyond your toes and not for the following reasons:

- Perform certain task.
- balance the upper body weight (when upper body is bending back or lift up 1 leg behind).

What can be your reason for doing so?