Coordinate your breath with your movement

[Trip]

When you play sports as tennis, badminton or when you go bicycling, or when you lift or push something heavy, do you try to coordinate your breath?

Of course not.

If you Bao, don’t want to coordinate your breath, you have that right.
But, to excel in many sports coordinated breathing is a basic.
Most top athletes coordinate their breath with their movements
which allows them to be much more efficient.

This is true in tennis, cycling, basketball, and weightlifting and even in sharp shooting, etc.

The basic breathing technique for lifters should be to take a deep breath in as they lower the weight and exhale as they lift the weight or work against gravity. You will be able to properly circulate oxygen throughout your body to your muscles and protect you from harm.

https://youtu.be/QXsNdAaWixQ?t=70

now generally when most people say bounce, they will inhale.
And when they say hit, they will exhale

So, it's bounce, hit
and so by inhaling and exhaling we
actually get the right Rhythm of the
body The Right Use of the diaphragm.

That's why you see so many of the players making a grunting noise, or a sound as they hit the ball.
It's not that they're trying to grunt.
It's that they're exhaling.
So, it's inhale exhale.
Inhale exhale, and if you inhale
on the bounce and exhale on the hit
Then it naturally gives the body rhythm

How To Breathe Properly During Tennis

Now that you’re more aware of the reasons why breathing becomes shallow and why we even hold our breath sometimes, you’ll most likely breathe better already.
Here are the key points to keep in mind to improve your game even more when it comes to breathing in tennis:

1. Exhale as you’re hitting the ball
Start your exhale as you start your forward swing.
Your exhale should be long for ground strokes and serves and just naturally shorter for volleys and overheads.
A good way to practice is to start exhaling slightly early – immediately as you’re beginning your forward swing towards the ball.
Hit the ball in the middle of your exhale, half of it happening before contact and half after contact.
I am certain your ground strokes and serves will improve more with this breathing technique than they did with the last mechanical instruction you tried to apply to your strokes.

https://www.feeltennis.net/breathing-in-tennis/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rSPqLQ4Hz0

[Trip]

Hey Giles,
I enjoy reading your posts.

I hear what you're saying, and in principle I agree. But do you always do your basic tai chi chuan form at the same speed? (A genuine question, not a rhetorical one). In other words, you don't vary from quite flowing to slow to super slow (but of course not stagnant)? If you do indeed always do your form at the same speed and have found a relaxed breathing pattern that works for you, then okay. Personally, I would start to feel my form as a corset if I didn't have the freedom to vary the speeds from day to day or minute to minute, while my breathing remains as slow, deep and relaxed as possible in that moment. That's why - like I said - I use separate exercises where specific movements are linked to specific patterns of inhalation and exhalation to work towards the desired effects.

I would start to feel my form as a corset if I didn't have the freedom to vary the speeds from day to day or minute to minute,
I get what you’re saying too.

I think if you look at my whole post, you’ll see that I agreed with this.

The attention of your Whole being should be on the spirit and not on the chi.
If it is on the chi, there will be blocks.
Those whose attention is on the chi have no power;
those whose attention is not on the chi achieve essential hardness.

I only talked about combining your breath with your movements.
Not that the breath leads your movements.

I didn’t imply that coordinated breathing with movements means you cannot vary your speed.
Or, that you should always do Taiji at the same speed.

Focusing on the breath is just the finger pointing the way
to subtler, harder to discern mind body breath
that includes the breathing, but is not led by the breathing.

Once your mind and body breathes you take your focus off the finger.

I think focusing on what you’re trying to get your movements to do,
at that time, for that specific situation,
whatever that is, is way more important.

Another way to say it is
Harmonizing with the present time (the situation you are dealing with),
and using Yin or Yang to adapt to that present situation,
in order to achieve the best outcome is much, much more important.

Action in agreement with the situation


Also, I did not advocate being tense to do anything.
Of, course you should be relaxed--but not limp!

So, I’m not too inclined to defend it.
I’ll just say, If you’re too tense, too stiff,
it’s going to negatively affect your breathing & more.

You know the rule.
Not too much, not too little.

Some of you are bringing up arguments I never made.
And, as I said, I not inclined to defend something I didn’t say.

Plus, It’s difficult for me to post here and I have limited online time.
I get kicked off RSF repeatedly just trying to make one reply post.
I end up having to re-login over and over again.
That takes up a lot of time that I don’t have.

So, if I didn't get to reply to something you said
Don't take it as an insult.

[johnwang]

Coordinating the breath is will always act counterproductive.

It doesn't matter which MA system you are training, does it make sense to coordinate your punch with 4 breaths such as inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale?

[charlie_cambridge]

I had the same problem with Firefox for awhile, combo of clearing cache and resetting website permissions of RSF seems to have helped a bit.

That said, this site still loads much slower than seemingly the entire rest of the internet (including high bandwidth stuff like Netflix)

Plus, It’s difficult for me to post here and I have limited online time.
I get kicked off RSF repeatedly just trying to make one reply post.
I end up having to re-login over and over again.
That takes up a lot of time that I don’t have.

[Bao]

If you Bao, don’t want to coordinate your breath, you have that right.
But, to excel in many sports coordinated breathing is a basic.
Most top athletes coordinate their breath with their movements
which allows them to be much more efficient.

This is true in tennis, cycling, basketball, and weightlifting and even in sharp shooting, etc.

Movement and breath will be correctly coordinated by itself if you let your body do it by itself. It's not necessary to activately coordinate movement and breath.

You are just confusing the subject. Learning to breathe correctly, or to not hold your breath while you are doing something, is not the same as coordinating the breath together with movement in the way that is sometimes proposed in Tai Chi, and what is more common in qigong. What we are speaking about now when we discuss coordinating breath in Tai Chi is to coordinate every movement with either breathing in or out. So you need to make a valid comparison. In basketball, for instance, you do not breath in our out every time you bounce the ball in the floor. You don't have time to think about how you breathe all of the time. When you are cycling fast, it would be impossible to breathe out every time your foot press down. When it comes to weightlifting, learning to breathe is not about "excel" in the sport. It's something most basic and without it, you won't even pass beginners stage. However, this sport/training deals with extreme physical effort, so it's not really a fair comparison to the slow, gentle movements in tai chi practice.

[marvin8]

If A takes 5 minutes to finish his 108 moves Taiji form by following the guideline that "1 move equal to 1 breath" (either inhale, or exhale). B will take 20 minutes to finish the same 108 moves Taiji form. That mean B takes about 4 breaths on each move, or B can breath 4 times slower than A can (this is quite unlikely).

This imply that B does a single punch (or a single kick) by doing inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale (or exhale, inhale, exhale, inhale)? Is that correct way to train any MA system?

Not exactly. Both A and B take 1 breath on each move. That means B takes about 5 breaths per minute, while A takes 22 breaths per minute.

No, it implies B does a move by doing one breath. It may be a correct way to train depending on the goals.

[johnwang]

Both A and B take 1 breath on each move. That means B takes about 5 breaths per minute, while A takes 22 breaths per minute.

A normal respiratory rate in healthy adults is roughly 12 to 20 breaths per minute. It's difficult (if not impossible) to have 5 breaths per minute.

https://www.healthline.com/health/norma ... atory-rate

[marvin8]

Both A and B take 1 breath on each move. That means B takes about 5 breaths per minute, while A takes 22 breaths per minute.

A normal respiratory rate in healthy adults is roughly 12 to 20 breaths per minute. It's difficult (if not impossible) to have 5 breaths per minute.

https://www.healthline.com/health/norma ... atory-rate

The average person can hold their breath for a couple minutes. It's interesting how 5-6 breaths per minute are related to meditation, giving meaning to "stillness in movement" in the taiji form.

5.5 Breaths Per Minute:

Research suggests that humans' optimal breathing rate is 5.5 breaths per minute. This works out to be 5.5 seconds per inhale and 5.5 seconds per exhale. This meditation provides an original musical composition paced at exactly this rate with some initial guidance from me to get us started. Find a comfortable position, relax your shoulder down your back, and let your eyes gently close. Let's begin.

[marvin8]

A normal respiratory rate in healthy adults is roughly 12 to 20 breaths per minute. It's difficult (if not impossible) to have 5 breaths per minute.

https://www.healthline.com/health/norma ... atory-rate

Phil Daru discusses breath holds before and during workouts to lower oxygen saturation and improve muscular endurance. His fighters are renowned for their volume striking. At 3:01,

That's the main purpose behind the Buteyko method. What Patrick [McKeown] always talks about is people breathe too frequently. You want to try to get to a point where you're only breathing about six times per minute. Anything more than that then you're actually breathing too much. Then, your body utilizing oxygen that's not really efficient to do so.

Phil Daru
Dec 4, 2019

How to Breathe Properly & Quickly Recover Between MMA and Boxing Rounds!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7lqEBnjypc&t=3m1s

Edit:

Buteyko Clinic International
Oct 14, 2020

Matt Systema meets Patrick McKeown

Systema and Buteyko are well known Russin breathing technics. Matt will be talking about Systema and Patrick will talk about Buteyko, so they will explore the similarity and the differences between these two breathing technics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRS3LlW1oEE

[Trip]

I had the same problem with Firefox for awhile, combo of clearing cache and resetting website permissions of RSF seems to have helped a bit.

That said, this site still loads much slower than seemingly the entire rest of the internet (including high bandwidth stuff like Netflix)

I'll give them a try
Thanks for the tips, Charlie
Thumbs up to you

Yeah, it's a little slow here
But, there aren't many Internal sites like this one
Plus, we do Taiji
Slow is part of our game

And, there's a lot of good people here with solid Internal training and insights
If you ask the right questions, some of them might answer

[Trip]

However, this sport/training deals with extreme physical effort, so it's not really a fair comparison to the slow, gentle movements in tai chi practice.

"Not really a fair comparison?"
Bao, you're the one who brought up sports:

When you play sports as tennis, badminton or when you go bicycling, or when you lift or push something heavy, do you try to coordinate your breath?

Of course not.

I just provided examples of the sports you brought up
and how the players use breathing to help their game.

Like Now, you're talking about basketball, right?

In basketball, for instance, you do not breath in our out every time you bounce the ball in the floor. You don't have time to think about how you breathe all of the time.

Have you ever played organized basketball?
I ask cause, There’s way more to basketball than just dribbling.

For instance
In order to improve accuracy,
There's a shooting coach who will teach you things like
correct shooting form & where to inhale or exhale on your shot.

Now, you don't have to learn those things
but, they improve your chances of the ball going in.

Kinda like the Tennis players who learn when to breathe their strokes

Anyway, like I said
If you Bao, don’t want to coordinate your breath, you have that right.

Found this in the THE TAIJI MANUAL OF SUN LUTANG

氣歛
[3] The energy is COLLECTED.
If your energy is scattered, then it will not be stored,
and your body will easily fall into disorder.
You must cause the energy to collect into your spine.

Inhaling and exhaling penetrates and enlivens, influencing every part of your body.
Inhaling is contracting and storing.
Exhaling is expanding and releasing.
Since with inhaling there is a natural rising, take the opponent up.
Since with exhaling there is a natural sinking, send the opponent away.
This is the use of intention to move energy, not the use of exertion to force energy.

[origami_itto]

Lot of chatter, time for me to come in and lay it all out in a way we can all easily understand and agree with once and for all.

Breath is cool because it's automatic but we can steo in and control it and that gives us some pretty cool access to the automatic processes that key off it.

When doing breath work I practice about 80% normal breathing and about 20% reverse breaths. The basic pattern is in when the arms move up and out when they move down, then that becomes in when things come together and out when they move apart. Moving past that as the movements start getting more complex I just let it go.

My body knows what air I need, I just let it have that and don't bother the breathing. This means the circulation is free and I stay oxygenated. I think I backed into circular breathing like you would do with a digeredoo. Now I can speak while breathing deeply and it does not affect each other.

So by being passive the motion of my body is assisting that circulation.

So normal breathing is good for movement. Reverse breathing is good for power. It's a pressurized column of air that helps stabilize the torso and transmit power.

And that's where heng and ha come into play. Big issuing. Heng to swallow/gather, ha to spit/issue.

Otherwise leave the breath alone. Mobility is not issuing

[charlie_cambridge]

I think Li Yi Yu’s 5 character secret (or someone else in Lo/Inn/Amacker/Foe’s “Essence of tai chi” translation of the classics but pretty sure it was the 5 character secret on Breath) wrote that the inhale can (uproot? lift? the opponent, something along those lines) while the exhale can “naturally discharge him”

We recommend using the reverse breathing to sink the mind awareness deeper. PK has commented that listening only to external body movement is like “level zero” i.e. not even doing taiji even if the external movements look approx right. For people who’ve trained 10+ years he’d say one of the most important things to focus on is finding the lightly elastic state of the body, and sinking the mind deeper with the breathing is a key first step to finding that.

Lot of chatter, time for me to come in and lay it all out in a way we can all easily understand and agree with once and for all.

Breath is cool because it's automatic but we can steo in and control it and that gives us some pretty cool access to the automatic processes that key off it.

When doing breath work I practice about 80% normal breathing and about 20% reverse breaths. The basic pattern is in when the arms move up and out when they move down, then that becomes in when things come together and out when they move apart. Moving past that as the movements start getting more complex I just let it go.

My body knows what air I need, I just let it have that and don't bother the breathing. This means the circulation is free and I stay oxygenated. I think I backed into circular breathing like you would do with a digeredoo. Now I can speak while breathing deeply and it does not affect each other.

So by being passive the motion of my body is assisting that circulation.

So normal breathing is good for movement. Reverse breathing is good for power. It's a pressurized column of air that helps stabilize the torso and transmit power.

And that's where heng and ha come into play. Big issuing. Heng to swallow/gather, ha to spit/issue.

Otherwise leave the breath alone. Mobility is not issuing

[johnwang]

If you believe in nature breathing, will you

- raise your arms when you exhale?
- drop your arms when you inhale?
- open your arms when you exhale?
- close your arms when you inhale?

When you do "left brush knee twist step", will you

- inhale when your right hand is next to your right ear?
- exhale when your right hand is in front of your chest?

Your movement has to do with your lung open and close. Try to inhale when your lung is close, or try to exhale when your lung is open are not proper.

Will you be able to inhale at the end of "needle at the bottom of the sea"?

[Giles]

Hi Trip,
Thanks for your responses. I don't have that much time for RSF at the moment either, very busy with stuff, but I would like to respond again briefly.

I only talked about combining your breath with your movements.
Not that the breath leads your movements.

I didn’t imply that coordinated breathing with movements means you cannot vary your speed.
Or, that you should always do Taiji at the same speed.

Okay, I can imagine we are more or less on the same page here (although it would also be fine if we weren't...), but what you write is still a little abstract for my maybe slow mind. So to clarify: When you vary the speed of your basic tai chi form, then - assuming you are still "combining breath and movements" - what does that actually mean for the relationship between the two? Do you still consciously 'steer' your breathing in some way? And if so, is it still specifically linked to specific movements, or groups of movements? Or, for want of a better description, do you allow yourself to be 'surprised' by specific interlockings of movements and breaths? Or do you do something else entirely?
No hurry with a reply - as and when it your find the time.