The highest of hands

[origami_itto]

Simple two part question for the assembled masses...

Part one:
Who is the best you've messed with?

Not just sat in a class and got a correction, but who is the one that you feel embodies the highest pinnacle of the art that you have direct experience with?

So not necessarily who is best, but who showed you the best.

Preferrably taijiquan but I'm open to other arts too.

And the second part of the question.
What about that experience makes you feel they are the best?

I'm not interested in starting an argument. It's not about who's sifu can beat up who's sifu. I really just want to know what we all feel represents what we are striving for in our practice.

You can even skip the name and just describe the qualities, and none of this "They embodied the 8 jin perfectly" crap. I want details of immediate experience. What did that split feel like?

For me, there have been several, and I don't want to leave anybody out, so if we've met I'm definitely talking about you, you're mint, friggin perfect.

The first I'd say is just untouchable, to me. Every attempt to put force on their body is pointless, he just isn't there until they're on my vulnerable angle and then wham, I'm flying and I don't feel a thing.
The second was unmovable, I was invited to do whatever I wanted and they just stood there. They weren't moving at all, and I didn't feel resistance. I just couldn't put my force into them. It was like pouring water on a balloon, just shunts off to the side. Felt like walking on a hard floor full of ball bearings. I didn't want to move too fast or hard because I felt like I would just slip off. They twitched and I lost my balance and stumbled backwards across the room. Felt nothing.
The third just kept me on the edge of falling down with the lightest of taps and tugs. Somehow just always knew exactly what angle would put me into a hole that I'd have to try to dig out of. At any point, they could have squished me like a bug and there was nothing I'd been able to do about it.

Bear in mind I'm not very good, but I have pushed with at least a hundred or so folks that are passionate enough about this art to put in the time and work and travel and money for us to come together, which usually always involves somebody driving for at least a couple hours. I've worked with strong folks, weak folks, aggressive, passive, judo, wing tsun, muay thai practitioners, hsing-yi, etc. Had all kinds of approaches to the art, and there are definitely others that are noteworthy, but these stand out for me.

[charlie_cambridge]

For me my current teacher, 3 examples:

1) on first meeting (when I had already trained 4000+ hours, approx 1000 hours with direct supervision by direct US students of ZMQ) from a position of zero mechanical advantage (he stood with legs straight parallel and feet hanging off an edge where section of floor few inches below the other), while I had a proper 70-30/bow and arrow etc stance, we free pushed. From first contact he threw me across the room without me feeling a thing, as in I did not even realize I had been thrown until after I landed on my feet several yards away--I basically did a double take when I realized based on actual sight that I was no longer standing right in front of him.

2) After training his system for 5+ years, I could issue almost anyone if they let my hands on their body (and some people even without touching their body, e.g. through an arm or something), my teacher to demonstrate something let me put my hands on his torso with his arms completely down and try to issue him. It's hard to describe but I could not move him at all, yet there was zero resistance and I could not see him visibly move to yield or something either. I.e. his body was there apparently not moving yet I could not build any force into it (despite it not visibly moving away at all) as if it was just a cloud, still, that I just could not put force on at all (yet somehow with no resistance I was unable to move forward into it either). Sounds impossible but that was the clear feeling as I spent a few minutes in the position trying to build force and figure out what was going on while he just stood there looking like he was doing nothing.

3) Last year just doing standard fixed push hands exercises, I felt reasonably smooth on something like a basic rollback, but doing it with him just a few times it just felt incredibly clumsy by comparison. (same very simple movement, but just from touching him and feeling how smooth/straight his move was, my same movement suddently felt super rough/"jagged" by comparison)

[wayne hansen]

Wait a minute I will make up a good story to match those above

[Bao]

Late teacher Hu. If he touched your arm, if so only with one hand, he would inevitably make you sit down on the ground or put you anywhere he wanted. He would manipulate your whole structure with just one hand. It didn't look much at all, he just used a small, subtle, relaxed movement. But if felt incredibly strong, like you were trapped in a machine. You couldn't do anything, not resist, not change, not do anything. He was in complete control of your whole structure just by using tiny little shifts. He could do things as catching a fist with one hand and instantly throw the person onto the floor. Or he would play with people putting them down on the ground while keeping contact, and then reverse the movement making them stand in their exact original posture again. It looked as you would watched a film in reverse. Up and down, up and down. It didn't matter who he played with, he could control anyone. Maybe he would do different things on different people, but he could manipulate anyone by will. I have met other tai chi teachers who could hit incredibly hard or had a strong push that felt like your whole ribcage had been pushed in, or could issue you far. But Hu's subtle skill and absolute precision and control was unique, I haven't seen or met anyone who could do anything similar to what he did. He tried to teach his methods, even his more subtle skills, but the problem was that no one could reproduce what he did.

...He was also a warm and kind person with lots of humor. We miss him deeply.

One of two people I didn't meet many times, but I still miss them a lot.

[charlie_cambridge]

Thanks for sharing Bao,

If you are willing to clarify, what was teacher Hu's full name and did any of his students obtain his skills?

PK does a similar thing in a downward direction though I have not seen him ever "reverse" it to bring someone up on the same line. He's taught us how to do the downward (and repeatedly demo'd in slow motion etc) but I haven't figured that out yet despite "theoretically knowing" what to do.

Many exercises in my school that look simple when seniors teach it until I try to repeat them myself..

[Bao]

Thanks for sharing Bao,

If you are willing to clarify, what was teacher Hu's full name

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... da75b00321

and did any of his students obtain his skills?

He had only a handful students/disciples scattered here and there, maybe 5 or 6 people. I've heard one of them should be very good, but I don't know who he is or where he resides. One of my teachers, Bill, is his student. But Bill is mainly a rather traditional Yang stylist, he has not the same type of skillset though very skilled in his own way, and he doesn't really teach much of Hu's stuff at all.

[charlie_cambridge]

Thanks Bao!

Origami_itto, thanks for starting the thread. I do hope some people will "name names"--the people in these stories are the ones I'd love to visit privately. Less interested in general "push hands meetups" but love looking up people of the sort described here (if they are actually willing to teach or at least receptive to visitors)

[origami_itto]

Wait a minute I will make up a good story to match those above

Waitin, bruh... wtf where my story?

[greytowhite]

When I first met my Chen teacher I'd done some Aikido and Judo, then in high school my best friend was a champion kickboxer. He basically had me use my prior experience once I was fit enough to test his art. I knew he wasn't fully developed yet but I was his first student and we had been friends for years. He quickly went from me being able to hit him at will to being able to intercept and lock me or throw at will. I watched his jump kicks gain height and his movement transformed as he went and touched hands with more and more members of the Chen family. I also watched him invite his Wing Chun classmates to come push and help him improve.

Later, I'd moved to Sacramento and I met Carmine Farruggia. He could demonstrate the difference of flavor between Guang Ping Yang, Chen village, Hong Junsheng's Practical Method, and Chen Zungu Taiji. It was really impressive watching him handle everything that people threw at him and then be able to express what he was doing and how to contrast between them. He and another Guang Ping guy really helped me out that year. I'm told he's teaching public classes at a very affordable rate now.

My Xingyi Bagua teacher Lloyd Day was confined to a wheelchair but was practically immovable. I only ever saw one person able to move him and Lloyd was paralyzed from the solar plexus down while this person was very athletic and able to use every part of his body. Lloyd had an uncanny ability to softly put his fingers into another person's body. It was excruciating when he subluxated a floating rib once. He really had a lot of vibratory power and structure - he was an amazing practitioner but a difficult teacher.

Tim White never really taught us anything martial but a year long Baguazhang neigong intensive is bound to have an affect on the quality of martial arts one practices. I literally felt him put an invisible gem in my hand our first lesson. Cintamani, Lingbao - whatever he put one in my hand and I have the ability to do the same for others since training with him. The empowerment I received from him is the basis of every other Daoist or Tantric system I've practiced since. Prior to him I had not encountered another person who has such a simple way of practicing and the ability to pass it on physically, energetically, and spiritually. He has the uncanny ability to read information you're putting in your field and it can seem almost like telepathy.

Ray Carbullido continues to impress me as he ages. He literally looks like a tombstone with extremities and is a modern embodiment of Chen Changxing's nickname. Last time I saw him there was a 6" band of white light surrounding him. He is literally immovable. I got a chance to push him this last time and he described gutters of force for standing practice. It felt like every ounce of my push just drained down his centerline. Also, when I view him with my 3rd eye Ray has a gold body and a black/white/violet sort of liquid that evaporates and congeals, then sloshes, and waves, and turns gassy again. He mentioned in our last seminar that when he first met me he did not have the confidence he has now after having international strongman competitors and elite athletes try to push him.

[everything]

similar feelings (receiving not issuing). me standing with the mechanical advantage. felt like you (me) are moved and you don't understand how/why. i only "issued" once, but I guess it was the opposite (but same) feeling. at super baby level or below that. i felt some "energy" move on the "inside", no "jin" or strength or power or technique or effort or anything. my training partner pushed me lightly and was moved, and we didn't understand how/why. the "qi" moving was my only clue but I didn't "try". If I "tried", I suppose I'd fail.

[johnwang]

Preferrably taijiquan but I'm open to other arts too.

When GM Chang Tung-Sheng had a head lock on my forehead with leg twist on one of my legs, I felt headache and my leg was crashed by his body weight. I can still do this to my students. But none of my students can do to their students. The reason is simple. The new generation doesn't want to invest training time in ability (Gong) development such as "pole hanging".

One day I was proud to tell GM Chang that I had spent 5 years on "pole hanging". GM Chang then told me that he had spent 10 years on it. I kept my mouth shut and spent 10 more years on it after that.

[Appledog]

Preferrably taijiquan but I'm open to other arts too.

When GM Chang Tung-Sheng had a head lock on my forehead with leg twist on one of my legs, I felt headache and my leg was crashed by his body weight. I can still do this to my students. But none of my students can do to their students. The reason is simple. The new generation doesn't want to invest training time in ability (Gong) development such as "pole hanging".

One day I was proud to tell GM Chang that I had spent 5 years on "pole hanging". GM Chang then told me that he had spent 10 years on it. I kept my mouth shut and spent 10 more years on it after that.

Yeah, it's a bit of an anti-answer. For me, I don't care about who the highest hand was anymore. My teachers are enough. Otherwise its looking at others and not myself. What is pole hanging though, I didn't even hear of it before.

For me I've decided to throw away most of what I know, and start over doing tantui. I'm getting older and I don't know any advanced things, so I will die poor because nobody loves me. Why tantui? Why not xingyi, chen style, shaolin kind of forms, sun style, yang, wu, weapons, anything else I know? Sure, I got something out of those. But because it's simple and I get winded if I do it for long enough just like anything else maybe I should have gone to this foundation earlier. So all I will do until I die is ya tui gong and cry and then I will be dead. But at least maybe I will feel something from the ya tui gong before I am dead. I don't care anymore. I decided to just do what my teachers told me until it is over. I will never get beyond ya tui gong, six kicks (line kicking exercises), and tantui. When I am bored I will watch old videos like this one and dream about my next life.

[origami_itto]

Yeah, it's a bit of an anti-answer. For me, I don't care about who the highest hand was anymore. My teachers are enough. Otherwise its looking at others and not myself. What is pole hanging though, I didn't even hear of it before.

I care less about who than what.

Of the people that impressed you with their skill, which can be just your teachers, perfectly acceptable person... what was it that impressed you?

[johnwang]

For me I've decided to throw away most of what I know, and start over doing tantui. I'm getting older and I don't know any advanced things, ... What is pole hanging though, I didn't even hear of it before. ...

The Tan Tui #1 and #2 are also 2 of my favor drills.

I agree to find something that you "enjoy" training through old age is important. I like to train combos and repeat each combo 20 times. It takes me about 1 and 1/2 hour to complete. Next day I just run 3 miles.

The CMA Gong development can be a big joke. When you were young, you competed in tournament, but your Gong was weak. When you have spent years of training time to develop your Gong to make your Gong strong, you then found out that you are too old to compete in tournament.

May be this is only the CMA issue. You have spent 10 years to sharp your sword. You then find out that you are too old to fight in the battlefield.

This is pole hanging training (Gong development).

[wiesiek]

One day around eighties, past century ,
I was in the filming crew of TKD demo/show. There was top ranks guys with Gen. Choi, kinda of a European promo tour.
Demo , like demo those days; nothing unusual, just standard breakin` of boards throwing freely into the air (four at once) or flying kicks executed over the car, and some SD basic, demonstrated on a volunteer from among the audience- and this was interesting, `cause we got it on the slo mo.
So
how fast is TKD hi ranked black belt compare to average "street guy"?
Well,
"Average" is starting to react, when TDK is standing in the "nothing happen" position already, after executed tech.