Left side and right side balanced form

[Appledog]

...

With respect to tai chi, the yi lu routine does include the exact move shown in your crescent kick video, the one where they kick the hands in front. It is an inside crescent kick with the left leg to the right hand immediately followed by turning and then kicking both hands with an outside crescent kick. As a drill I was taught to do the exact same exercises shown in that video which is part of a short routine I call sick kicks; rising kick, inside crescent, outside crescent, cross-step kick (like ya tui gong), kick the hands kick (i call it zombie kicks) and back kick.

With respect to the Yang's tai chi, it is very clear from the bio of Yang Lu-Chan that he removed the most difficult moves, and especially any kind of jumping kick from the form.

[windwalker]

...

With respect to tai chi, the yi lu routine does include the exact move shown in your crescent kick video, the one where they kick the hands in front. It is an inside crescent kick with the left leg to the right hand immediately followed by turning and then kicking both hands with an outside crescent kick. As a drill I was taught to do the exact same exercises shown in that video which is part of a short routine I call sick kicks; rising kick, inside crescent, outside crescent, cross-step kick (like ya tui gong), kick the hands kick (i call it zombie kicks) and back kick.

With respect to the Yang's tai chi, it is very clear from the bio of Yang Lu-Chan that he removed the most difficult moves, and especially any kind of jumping kick from the form.

"very clear" really


What is clear is that "Yang's" method from what has been passed down, and recorded historically.
Was quite different based on a different idea...

The Chen family called their style paochui. (strike like a cannon). Also, the Chen family doesn't have the Taiji Classics.'
The Taiji Classics are like the taiji bible. Some of the most important principles from the Taiji Classics are: relax, separate yin and yang, make the waist the
commander, keep the body upright and movements slow. The Chen style does- n't adhere to these principles.

Later, when Yang Luchan became famous, the Chen family called their style taijiquan.

Al styles of taijiquan-Chen, Yang, both Wu styles, Sun, and so forth should follow the principles described in the Taiji Classics if they are going to call themselves taijiguan.
If the Chen family invented taijl, why don't they have the Taiji Classics?

When one states that teachers have changed the way they do the form, it's sometimes due to faulty perception and limited understanding of the form.

This problem also occurs when teachers teach the form before they've mastered it themselves.

Sometimes when a student observes others doing taiji and their postures seem different, it's the student's fault.

Usually when a posture seems changed, it's because the student isn't doing the posture correctly; he isn't following the principles.
Even now, when I ask students in my workshops to do the postures, they can't do them; they can't maintain the taiji principles while doing these postures.

The idea that YLC made it easier, in general, a perception by those in the west maybe not understanding the guiding principles of whats called taiji..
As any one who has worked with Ben Lo, and others would know..

What looks simple, until one tries it, is often not.

The postures are learned in a low, tiring manner at a speed faster than the large frame but not at the full speed of the small frame. The small frame is learned one posture at a time and in short sequences until the student's endurance and strength allowed him to link all the sequences into the whole form.

When teaching the form, Shaohou often made his students practice under a high table to enforce the low tiring stance upon them.

interesting enough my teachers 1st grandson was made to practice under a table...once asked him how to get better..his reply

"the more pain you can endure, the higher level you can attain"

Since we are comparing what is done in practice, how many here practice under a table

[yeniseri]

When one states that teachers have changed the way they do the form, it's sometimes due to faulty perception and limited understanding of the form

This is rarely the case in itself but both sides acknowledging (per the teacher) the student cannot do the posture but I (teacher, usually) can adjust it to match his physical conditioning of the syudent i.e. his aqbility or lack to
mimic the posture hiw it was intended. Secondly, Just as Yang Luchan learnt Chen Family System, he adjusted/changed crtain postures according to his experience and understanding as a way to highlight his own
previous martial background while integrating elements of what he learnt from Chen style.
I remember that when my teacher was showing us the right and left sides of a form routine (modern insight ) 1/2 the class would not show up so he stopped doing that.
NOTE: We mostly did the Beijing24shitaijiquan but it was also useful for "traditional" routines

This problem also occurs when teachers teach the form before they've mastered it themselves.

Not necessarily keeping in mind that since Chen Family Style (Chenjiagou) was the template of learning/instruction, all who learnt the tem[plate made explicit conscious choices to embellish/prioritize
their own view and add to this template while creating their own system and imprint, hence Yang style, Wu style(s), Sun style, etc

Sometimes when a student observes others doing taiji and their postures seem different, it's the student's fault.

There is no fault if the student is doing x form in x manner, at least, there shouldn't be! If the student understands he needs correction then he realizes his deficiency so he corrects himself/herself accordingly.

[Bob]

Who wrote the Taiji Classics?

Pretty good inference that the Yang family was likely to be illiterate as was over 90+ percent of the general population at that time - was this an oral tradition which was dictated by the Yang family members? Was it based on Yang Luchan's experience with his Chen's taiji?

We know that Yang Luchan did not originally author the name taiji for what he practiced - it was done by someone else as has been discussed on this board previously - no one is sure what he originally called his practice let alone developing the Taiji Classics - in fact no one knows exactly what his practice looked like or what he exactly practiced.

Consider Ben Lo who said in an interview that he learned one stationary posture a month in his first year but not sure if he said he practiced them moving - had students hold postures while moving through their forms.

Not an easy task to reach absolute conclusions

[windwalker]

Who wrote the Taiji Classics?

Pretty good inference that the Yang family was likely to be illiterate as was over 90+ percent of the general population at that time - was this an oral tradition which was dictated by the Yang family members? Was it based on Yang Luchan's experience with his Chen's taiji?

We know that Yang Luchan did not originally author the name taiji for what he practiced - it was done by someone else as has been discussed on this board previously - no one is sure what he originally called his practice let alone developing the Taiji Classics - in fact no one knows exactly what his practice looked like or what he exactly practiced.

Consider Ben Lo who said in an interview that he learned one stationary posture a month in his first year but not sure if he said he practiced them moving - had students hold postures while moving through their forms.

Not an easy task to reach absolute conclusions

How do you know "that know one knows "

what are called the classics are compiled works of various noted taiji masters ,Wang Zongyue, and Chen Wangting among them..

You'er misunderstanding what is meant by "learning" a posture

This includes usage, and the underline practices to develop the correct posture ,,,,among other things...

[origami_itto]

Who wrote the Taiji Classics?

Pretty good inference that the Yang family was likely to be illiterate as was over 90+ percent of the general population at that time - was this an oral tradition which was dictated by the Yang family members? Was it based on Yang Luchan's experience with his Chen's taiji?

Douglas Wile makes a pretty good case for the probable provenance, the Wu family and students of Ban Hou being the most likely authors.

https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Tai-chi-Cla ... 0791426548

[robert]

Douglas Wile makes a pretty good case for the probable provenance, the Wu family and students of Ban Hou being the most likely authors.

The Taijiquan Classics appear after Wu Yuxiang has trained with Chen Qingping. They represent both Yang and Chen style taiji. Since YLC learned from CCX, how can it be otherwise? If YLC changed the principles it wouldn't be the same art he learned from CCX. FWIW.

[Bob]

Probabilistic or likelihood is in my thinking the safest way to ground historical inferences - Douglas Wile, again in my estimation, is a likely valid source.

Don't know what the inference is a about "learning" posture but Cheng Man Ching actually wrote about "holding" postures in one his books I have - my understanding of this type of training goes beyond strength development, although that is one of the many outcomes but alignment and specific jin development along with the cultivation of stillness comes with the package - but that isn't the sole focus or outcome and I will leave to others to take it deeper

[Bob]

I also "exchanged notes" on Cheng Man Ching taijiquan and bajiquan training on holding postures with a friend who actually did it under Ben Lo - as Liu Yunqiao said, " they are all sons of the same mother".

[windwalker]

I also "exchanged notes" on Cheng Man Ching taijiquan and bajiquan training on holding postures with a friend who actually did it under Ben Lo - as Liu Yunqiao said, " they are all sons of the same mother".

There are some here including myself who've trained under Ben...
we might know a little about holding postures

"I remember that going from single whip to lifting hands took 120 hours." At this time, Mrs. Zheng observed me doing the form. She was surprised that I hadn't learned more postures.

She asked the Professor why he hadn't taught me more, and he said that my leg was shaking like a pipa string. "

She said that times change, and the Professor shouldn't teach me like Prof. Yang taught him.

After this, the Professor began to teach me the next postures. Later, he changed his teaching style when he came to the United States.
In fact, I was surprised to learn when I visited the Professor's New York school that the students there had seen him do the entire form.

Prof. Zheng taught students in China differently from the way he taught students in the United States. When he taught me, he was very strict, espe- cially when he was younger. My legs would be so sore that, when I went to bed at night, I had to use my hands to lift my legs onto the bed. He was kinder with American students. "

In Ben's classes it was a little dangerous for those who drove...the legs would be so shot, that one had trouble stepping on the gas, and brake...
Good times.....

Master Zhang Youngliang my last teacher also used to do some practices similar to holding postures although
it was not really possible to hold them for longer then 5 min or so...

He advocated using the form practice, much as Ben did as a type of moving static way of training...

In some cases such as what was called low basin, just to be able to do the postures might take 3 yrs of prep work to be able to do it
with out hurting yourself....Not everyone, could, or would do this type of training..a kind of specialty type of training for those so inclined....

[Bob]

Just want clarify that I by no means have any expertise in Ben Lo's training methodology - I am sure my friend and I just had some fun comparing the differences and similarities - the "meat and potatoes" of the baji I learned, centers on the the xiao baji form and holding postures within the form do not reference time but rather relaxed breath inhalation/exhalation with mind directed to specific body areas (not meridians or qi circulation) mind/breath directional location - 8 areas building up to 8 inhale/exale per area - upper body relaxed lower body grounded (yin/yang)

Keeping in line with the topic, every posture we used in baji was taught as single moving, both sides up and down the field before we even touched any baji form - it may be bias on the part of Liu Yunqiao's methodology but we did those taiji form moving postures first before learning any form - same with some of the mantis we learned but not as comprehensive - at that time I hated it because I didn't understand its importance LOL

[wayne hansen]

Our Tai Chi

Standing
Shifting
Walking no hands
Walking using postures
We did this RRR. LLL RLRL
Form

[wayne hansen]

The other 4 things we do is practice Yangs 4 pillars

Hold single whip to strengthen the yang meridians
Hold lift hands to strengthen the yin meridians
Walk doing backfist PP for advancing energy
Walk backwards doing Repulse M for retreating energy

[origami_itto]

The other 4 things we do is practice Yangs 4 pillars

Hold single whip to strengthen the yang meridians
Hold lift hands to strengthen the yin meridians
Walk doing backfist PP for advancing energy
Walk backwards doing Repulse M for retreating energy

I'm sure I'm spacing out here, but what is back fist pp?

[wayne hansen]

Backfist parry punch
Poon l’an Choi