Left side and right side balanced form

[Appledog]

...from the bio of Yang Lu-Chan...

"very clear" really

What is clear is that "Yang's" method from what has been passed down, and recorded historically.
Was quite different based on a different idea...

Isn't it though? It's public information put out by the Yang family. You will also find in such biographies that Yang Lu-Chan was not the only person to come to the same discoveries through very similar process.

"...The Chen style does- n't adhere to these principles. ... If the Chen family invented taijl, why don't they have the Taiji Classics?"

Well, they do, and they do. History is a difficult thing to unravel. One could easily say the taiji classics were appropriated from Chang Naizhou's writings, or the taoists, or other locations, by Yang, in order to mask where his kungfu came from. Maybe ask Yang Lu-Chan's classmates? At any rate, there is a direct link between Chang and the Chens too, as there is with (I believe, Ji JiKe and a few others). As you say yourself, reading about something and practicing it are two different things. If the Chens didn't have the "tai chi classics" in writing, they certainly had them in practice.

So did "Shaolin". Grasp Bird's Tail/Lazily Arrange/etc. is from Shaolin forms. As would be, the logical conclusion, that they had all of the related training methods which went along with them. Unless you are saying Shaolin didn't have rou quan as well as many other similar internal arts. Is this really controversial?

"The idea that YLC made it easier, in general, a perception by those in the west maybe not understanding the guiding principles of whats called taiji.."

I didn't say he made it easier, I said he removed some movements. It happens quite frequently. Learning from the people he did, he was probably shown eclectic versions of the art that changed over time. And he saw what others were doing in the village. Yang Lu-Chan would have known very well from his experience that it is not the movements that matter but the principles behind them. As such, and being a master of those principles, he would have been free to change his art however he wanted. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As I have learned in my research he also added some others from his plum flower training ( such as raise hands/play the pipa ). All the movements in Yang's which are not in Chen's are from Plum Flower. He had to get them from somewhere.
Notably such as hold the ball exist not in Chen style but in some Shaolin styles like the quite famous so-called "southern dragon" form.

[windwalker]

added some others from his plum flower training ( such as raise hands/play the pipa ).
All the movements in Yang's which are not in Chen's are from Plum Flower. He had to get them from somewhere.
Notably such as hold the ball exist not in Chen style but in some Shaolin styles like the quite famous so-called "southern dragon" form.

Not a historian,

while I do find it interesting...
my own views are shaped by those I've met and trained under..


consider myself only a practitioner ....Don't claim to practice "yang" style taiji, only taiji

Empirical based "taiji" practice, theory, and usage reflecting the teachings of Master Zhang Youngliang,
my last teacher and other noted masters of taiji.


IME, The lines coming down through the various yang family members at different points
in time are quite different... some enough to be considered their own methods....named as such.

Today in China, some believe that the Chen family created taijiguan.
How can Chen be the inventor?

Some, for example Wu Tunan, even say that the Chen style is not taijiquan (Wu, 1984).

In the beginning, the Yang fami- yl called their style mianquan (cotton fist). That's because it was a soft (cot- ton) style. That's tailiguan. The Chen family called their style paochui (strike like a cannon).

Also, the Chen family doesn't have the Taiji Classics.' The Taiji Classics are like the taiji bible. Some of the most important principles from the Taiji Classics are: relax, separate yin and yang, make the waist the commander, keep the body upright and movements slow. The Chen style does- n't adhere to these principles. Later, when Yang Luchan became famous, the
Chen family called their style taijiquan.

Al styles of taijiquan-Chen, Yang, both Wu styles, Sun, and so forth should follow the principles described in
the Taiji Classics if they are going to call themselves taijiguan.

If the Chen family invented taijl, why don't they have the Taiji Classics?

Ben Lo, wrote this, he might have a little more insight then others . If you disagree
In Taiwan, there should be more then enough teachers from that line, to try your hand with, allowing them to understand the disagreement .

[wayne hansen]

If we consider YCF 10 essential points to be part of the classics
And I do
Chen certaially don’t follow the classics

[windwalker]

I didn't say he made it easier, I said he removed some movements. .

In a thread where some are talking about what "movements" are done on both sides or not, and why not



Ok

[johnwang]

In a thread where some are talking about what "movements" are done on both sides or not, and why not

Ok

You still have not answered my question, "Assume your Taiji form has a right leg outside crescent kick, and also assume you only train form without training drill. If you train your Taiji form 10,000 times, you have done your right leg outside crescent kick 10,000 times. But you have done your left leg outside crescent kick 0 times. Is that a proper training in your opinion?"

[windwalker]

In a thread where some are talking about what "movements" are done on both sides or not, and why not

Ok

You still have not answered my question, "Assume your Taiji form has a right leg outside crescent kick, and also assume you only train form without training drill. If you train your Taiji form 10,000 times, you have done your right leg outside crescent kick 10,000 times.

But you have done your left leg outside crescent kick 0 times. Is that a proper training in your opinion?"

You do know what they say about those who "assume"

lets not...

In my own practice, the form or "formal solo practice" is used to focus on different things....

What is "proper" training should align with intended usage..or focus for ones own practice...

As for doing the form on both sides, if you want to do it, why not?
Some people are left-handed, and some people are right-handed.

But you don't have to do it this way because in the form we already practice on both sides.
Also, the founder of taiji wasn't stupid. If he thought practicing on both sides was necessary, he would have put it in the form.

Some of Ben's thoughts on form practice...
Very down to earth guy,,,quite strict in practice while still understanding people had to find their own level...with a little help from him

[Appledog]

Ben Lo, wrote this, he might have a little more insight then others . If you disagree
In Taiwan, there should be more then enough teachers from that line, to try your hand with, allowing them to understand the disagreement .

Chen Weiming wrote,

問河南陳長興所傳弟子。除楊露禪外。尚有他知名者否。
Chen Changxing of Henan taught it to his sons and also to Yang Luchan. Were there also others of note?

答聞尚有河南懷慶府陳淸平者。亦得長興先生之傳。陳傳之武禹讓。武傳之李亦畬。李傳之郝為楨。郝傳之孫祿堂先生。
I have heard that Cheng Qingping of Huaiqing prefecture in Henan obtained Chen Changxing’s teaching, and that he then taught it to Wu Yurang [Yuxiang], who taught it to Li Yiyu, who taught it to Hao Weizhen, who taught it Sun Lutang.

I've heard some stories, but if you know how Yang changed what he did so far away from the Chens (and why) I'm all ears. IIRC he also went back after a number of years to learn from his teacher again and complete his training. I didn't make this stuff up. Anyways, not really something that can be solved with a show of hands. It's true or it isn't.

Anyways I'll tell a story I may have told before. As it turns out, the grandparent of one of my students is the local Cheng Man Ching style Tai Chi teacher in the area. They wanted me to join their group, so I showed them my Sun style. Most of the other people looked at it as if it was something alien; the open and close movement and single whip expression, they did not understand. But the teacher seemed to understand. Then I showed them some single hand silk reeling from the opening of the form. Again the others didn't get very much but the teacher said no, he has it, but it's just a different style. It's the same, but different. Then some guy came out from behind and said good job kid, your arms are great, now you have to work on your legs. We all laughed because we all knew it was so true. The point being, sometimes things seem different or in disagreement when they are really not.

If we consider YCF 10 essential points to be part of the classics
And I do
Chen certaially don’t follow the classics

I am honestly a bit surprised at you saying that. It's an easy position to take, but can you point out which principle they do not follow?

[windwalker]

Good, some have commented on your form play...
To know if its correct you should engage with others and see if open is really open and close is really close...

[
I've heard some stories, but if you know how Yang changed what he did so far away from the Chens (and why) I'm all ears. IIRC he also went back after a number of years to learn from his teacher again and complete his training. I didn't make this stuff up. Anyways, not really something that can be solved with a show of hands. It's true or it isn't.

Not a historian, do find the stories interesting...

You seem to be confusing learning something with evolving something...
Not the same..


some history

My great grandfather practiced it translator’s note: This refers to Chen Changxing, who taught Yang Luchan, the creator of Yang Style]. My father practiced it. I practice it now.
We do not call it Taiji. We do not have a name for it. You can call it anything you want, I will still practice it the same way I was taught. I don’t care what they put in the name!

Is Chen Style Taijiquan the original source of Taijiquan? Is Chen Style internal? State whatever opinion you have and present all your research papers. You might even patent the name, and forbid the Chen Village masters and direct lineage holders from using the name. But can you change the fact that it is their art and what they do is the right way?
You will never change its essential nature. It is what it is

The right way for what ?

The practice of Chen style ?,,,not really the point no?

At one of the first government sponsored traditional martial art competitions in Beijing, in 1952, Chen Fake was invited to attend, as one of the judges.

The famed Wu Tunan (also known as the Northern Star of Taijiquan) was in charge. A discussion came up, with regards to categorization of styles, leading to a great deal of controversy as to where Chen Style Taijiquan belonged.

Some suggested that it belonged to the External Division.

At the time, the slow and gentle nature of Yang style Taijiquan was considered the standard of Taijiquan.

What Chen Fake practiced certainly did not fall fall into this category.

true or not ?

Why note it as "Chen style Taijiquan" if at the time it was not considered as taiji..

does it change much ?

For some maybe,,,,others may be not..

[Bob]

It's Deja vu

Already cited previously from two sources that slow and "gentle" Chen's Taiji was and is a part of the Chen's taijiquan - but alas we find ourselves at the beginning of the circle again - LOL

[robert]

I've heard some stories, but if you know how Yang changed what he did so far away from the Chens (and why) I'm all ears. IIRC he also went back after a number of years to learn from his teacher again and complete his training. I didn't make this stuff up. Anyways, not really something that can be solved with a show of hands. It's true or it isn't.

I don't know why YLC made the changes he did, taking out the stomps, changes to choreography in GBT and inserting GBT before many occurrences of single whip, but I find it interesting that YLC would not let Wu Quanyou teach Yang style taiji. Benjamin Wu has written -

In general, there are five modern Tai Chi Chuan family styles, namely Chen, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, and Sun and all of them are directly or indirectly derived from the Chen Style. Wu Quanyou, father of Wu Style creator Wu Jianquan was a student of Yang Style creator Yang Luchan and his son Yang Banhou, who specialized in the small frame Yang Tai Chi Chuan. There was an understanding that Wu could not teach the Yang Style to others. Wu Jianquan honored the code and created Wu Style Tai Chi based upon the Yang’s small frame but with a new emphasis of an angular movement. In his old age, Wu Jianquan also created a circular frame Tai Chi Chuan focusing more on health that has become the commonly known Wu Style Tai Chi.

[windwalker]

It's Deja vu

Already cited previously from two sources that slow and "gentle" Chen's Taiji was and is a part of the Chen's taijiquan - but alas we find ourselves at the beginning of the circle again - LOL

A discussion between some who are practitioners and others, focused on history

No one has said that Yang's style did not evolve from Chen..Just as Jazz, is said to be evolved from various musical traditions.
No one would claim the other traditions are Jazz.
All are music, some enjoy different styles, methods over others...


Yang's method came from himself reflecting his understanding and depth of skill.

As a practitioner of a method partially based on Yang's method but not yang's style
nor claim to be......

Have no interest in Chen, do not really see much of a connection between it and "yang's " method

For me it matters little, only a point of interest....
answering my own questions regarding differences..

they'er not the same..

[Bob]

The hidden presuppositions many seem to make is that they know what Yang Luchan actually had and changed and pre-Chen Yanxi practice was the same as to what we currently see in Chen Taiji.

All we can do is probabilistically speculate that what our teacher taught us is the "true" Taji - so be it! LOL

[windwalker]

The hidden presuppositions many seem to make is that they know what Yang Luchan actually had and changed and pre-Chen Yanxi practice was the same as to what we currently see in Chen Taiji.

All we can do is probabilistically speculate that what our teacher taught us is the "true" Taji - so be it! LOL

interesting

Don't know what other "teachers" taught their students..
Do know what mine told me...

"when you know taiji, you can call it want you want"

his method of teaching much like days of old tailored to a students
ability, interest and need...

Had a conversation with a chen stylist at one time couple of yrs back

Chen: yang style has no fajin
me: yes it does
Chen: no it does not..
me: can you let me feel your fajin...

The Chen guy, did something like a press "Jǐ, 擠" it moved me a little , nothing special.

me: would you like to feel my fajin
Chen: yes

Used Jǐ, 擠.

chen: I didn't feel anything...
me: now I will follow with my body

a slight movement after the release, he fell to the ground, a little shaken

Chen: it's different...
me: yes it is

[Bob]

Potential insight arising from shared stories is always useful in the right hands.

Just a note Yang Chengfu expressed explosive fajing in his kicks during a public exhibition in Shanghai - those interested can find it in Lewis Swaim's material - ( if I got his name spelled correctly - too lazy to go through my book stacks to check the spelling LOL)

General Zhang Xiangwu, senior disciple of Li Shuwen, forced a young Liu Yunqiao to learn Yang's taiji and the "classics". The young Liu Yunqiao questioned why do it if I already have bajiquan - the general replied it will help to deepen your Bajiquan - Liu complied - there have been accusations that Liu's baji was too soft - in fact some of the early senior disciples of Liu denied Liu even knew Taiji - many 2nd generation disciples didn't want to bother with Liu's Yang style Taji - I was lucky my teacher complied with Liu "forcing" him to learn the material

FWIW - nothing inferred in my posting other than a shared story

[D_Glenn]

In the Baguazhang I practice, in classes our by ourselves, everything is done on both sides. Forms are really short so you don’t really pause between different sides. Since most people are right handed the left side is usually practiced first so that if you’re interrupted and have to stop early then the left will be practiced more than the right, as it needs to always be catching up to your right side and you don’t want it to fall too far behind.

At a seminar with Chen Xiao Wang someone asked him how come we don’t practice the left side or mirror image of the form, and he was confused by the question and responded, you should have been practicing the left side all this time. He said that in a teacher student environment, that the teacher only teaches the right side of the form. Then the student can teach themselves the left side of the form when they’re practicing on their own.

.