What are you trying to do in a fight?

[Appledog]

Intent to attack or intent to defend? Intent to harmonize or intent to harm? I think some forms of kung fu have what is called the principle of "cruelty", and some do not. Is MMA the same way?

This post is in reference to "MMA fighter charged in Florida death of airman". I am not judging the guilt or innocence of anyone and I can't make any general statements about MMA itself because MMA isn't just one thing.

Yet I have problems with what seems to have happened leading up to the fight. It seems as if the people involved didn't know anything about the escalation of violence, "self-defense" vs "aggression", Wu De, and so forth (From the news article you can sort of read in that the airman was struck from behind while unaware of the attacker). I think an important difference between MMA and Kung Fu is the idea of morality and a reactionary approach to combat rather than initiating violence. I think this is important and I don't think MMA is better because they are more aggressive.

Do you think this is a primary difference (Kung Fu is "reactionary" and MMA is "aggressive") and how do you train your students to both be competent at self-defense but also not to be overly-aggressive such that they escalate into violence?

[origami_itto]

I like to think of it as restoring peace vs intent to harm. If harm needs to happen to get to peace so be it.

The point of self defense is to defend the self from harm. The best way to do that is to not put it in danger in the first place. The classics say be evasive and avoid conflict. Tactically in an altercation, strategically to prevent an altercation and spiritually to even further remove oneself from striving for dominance and submission and harm against others.

So how to do? The whole pedagogy revolves around this concept. Investing in loss, yielding, stick adhere join follow... This is the point of the practice for me.

[Quigga]

It would be much easier to show than to talk about it.

Basically violence is always bad for society and should always remain a last resort, only if all other options have been explored already.

Professional fighting careers are attractive to people who have to prove something or have a chip to get off their shoulder. Also people who have been traumatized as children tend to resort to force to attempt to restore what they perceive as order.

Good spiritual training gradually removes the desire to fight, the desire for fame and public recognition, and generally eases out one's own internal conflicts that then get projected onto the world and cause harm.

Intent works on it's own after some time. 'Self'-defense, but what self is being defended, what self is acting.

If you live in harmony, someone attacking you doesn't attack you, but attacks harmony. So, natural rebalancing effect is what happens. No need to be overtly cruel.

Some people just like a good rumble or scrap. Nothing wrong with that. Good exercise and good for the heart. No hard feelings.

Attacking from behind shows malicious intent. There can be good reasons for that, but only in very few situations.

MMA is about money, Kung Fu isn't. Broad statement. Times have shown how easily money can make things such as Kung Fu worse.

Not claiming to win against any MMA top dog soon. Maybe hold a small candle to them and not get knocked out / submitted in first round. Fighting is their specialty after all, and only fighting at that.

A student's relaxed, calm, kind attitude says very little about fighting ability. Dirty attacks in public are frowned upon by the majority of MMA participants either way, view as unsportsmanlike at the very least.

Problem with Kung Fu is, when things get actually fast, it's hard to not hurt other people in some way. Sometimes hard to predict how one will react.

Killer qi comes with crazy eyes. Connection between eyes, liver, fascia, Hun. Powered by kidneys. Lots of force is developed. Harmful to stay in that state for too long at a time, very harmful.

[Quigga]

There is no trying, only action

Some green flashlight guy

[johnwang]

When you hip throw your opponent down, do you want him to get back up and attack you again, or do you want him to stay on the ground so you can walk away safely?

In sport, after you have hip thrown your opponent, you want to hold on his waist, so his fall won't be too hard. Your waist holding arm will have a upward lift. There is an elbow bending at the end.



But in combat, you want to throw your opponent as hard as you can. The waist lifting motion at the end of the hip throw is then removed from the training. There is no elbow bending at the end.

[windwalker]

Intent to attack or intent to defend? Intent to harmonize or intent to harm?

I think some forms of kung fu have what is called the principle of "cruelty", and some do not. Is MMA the same way?

Depends on how one views "martial arts" vs sport combative events"

For example

There is a name 杀气 killer qi.. meaning "killer intent"

Tibetan White Crane specially developed 杀气 in the 4 fighting principals

Chan (殘) Ruthlessness
Sim (閃) Evade
Chuen (穿) To Pierce
Jeet (截) To Intercept


another way of looking at it

It will soon be found that the principal value of the training lies not so much in the actual physical holds or breaks, but in the psycho- logical reaction which engenders and fosters the necessary attitude of mind which refuses to admit defeat and is determined to achieve
victory.

A gun is an impersonal weapon and kills cleanly and decently at a distance.
Killing with the bare hands at close quarters savours too much of pure savagery for most people. They
would hesitate to attempt it. But never was the catchword,
'He who hesitates is lost,' more applicable.

MMA

The question may well be asked, 'Why should I trouble to learn this "rough-house" method of fighting?'

The same question one might ask of what ever they practice...

We wish to make it clear that there is no intention of belittling boxing, wrestling, o rugby football.

A knowledge of these is an asset to anyone intending to study all-in fighting, and those who already have it start off with a great advantage over those who have never taken part in these sports.

No-one will dispute the effectiveness of a straight left or a right hook to the jaw or body, but unfortunately it takes months of practice to develop a good punch.

Unfortunate someone lost their life not understanding what could happen when engaging with a random person...
It could've gone either way and has...

The MMA guys training will be used and called into question as to whether he should have known better...
When it might have been his training that prevented him from not fighting....

Both probably had the same intent ,
not knowing the Airmans background hard to say, if they had the same training .

Neither one probably went in with killing intent , one reflexively responded, to someone not having the same reflexes .




Martial art or martial sport....
One teaches when not to fight, the other conditioned on fighting.

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

Ideally? Hit them, then hit them with the ground, then hit them more, choke them or break anything they give me until they stop moving or I can disengage safely.

The only major differences between sparring and real life are the protective gear, elbows, soccer kicks and stomps

[wayne hansen]

This might be the silliest thread yet

[origami_itto]

This might be the silliest thread yet

Is that a challenge?

[Quigga]

But why tho wayne. Aren't the questions asked legimitate ones?

Another answer maybe: 'Xing Yi like spear, cotton surrounded by iron. Tai Chi like ball, iron surrounded by cotton. Bague always changing, like wind.'

[everything]

The best way to do that is to not put it in danger in the first place.

this. we have no idea what happened in the incident mentioned, but it sounds like two people made a series of very stupid (and fatal) errors. why even "fight"? why are you in an environment that that's even a question? why is violence a better answer than some other (nearly infinite) answers? and so on.

[Quigga]

Sometimes people fool themselves into thinking they have to fight, act violent or harm others - ignoring the requirement of first exhausting all other options to deal with one's own internal state first.

Sometimes fighting is necessary - in war torn countries, to defend yourself from creepy assholes and rapists. In poor neighborhoods and where resources are dramatically short. But even only then, only to protect your loved ones, your self and your/their immediate survival.

Even in those circumstances, often their is a choice to walk down a path of more violence or of non to little.

Some people don't have the necessary freedom inside to abstain from unwise choices.

Sometimes, karma has to unfold. But to think first: my karma is to hurt you, that means I have to hurt you. - is wrong. Such karma will be correctly seen in reflection after the dust has settled.

Talking to each other would be much easier, but people can be very stubborn, egotistic, dogmatic, uncaring. Since they suck at negotiating and communicating, they resort to force.

Who knows what the real issues are. When a building is burning, you don't focus on extinguishing the flame where it originated. You just make sure the burning stops.

[Bao]

From a Taijiquan perspective there’s no “try”. You receive what receive, you adapt to what is happening. Looking back at things, I am happy I had a calm, non/aggressive mindset. I’ve been in a few fights when I was young, but I never had any impulse or wish to hurt someone. Mostly I just threw people around until they got tired and quit. So I have never gone to court or to a hospital after any of those times. A couple of youngsters tried to sue me for assault and beating them up. But as they had no visible marks this was dismissed.

However, if you are calm and don’t respond to aggression any fight will mostly go away before it turns physical.

So you shouldn’t really have the mindset of “fighting” or think about how you should hurt people. That’s not a healthy attitude.

BTW, Wayne is probably correct.

[origami_itto]

From a Taijiquan perspective there’s no “try”. You receive what receive, you adapt to what is happening. Looking back at things, I am happy I had a calm, non/aggressive mindset. I’ve been in a few fights when I was young, but I never had any impulse or wish to hurt someone. Mostly I just threw people around until they got tired and quit. So I have never gone to court or to a hospital after any of those times. A couple of youngsters tried to sue me for assault and beating them up. But as they had no visible marks this was dismissed.

However, if you are calm and don’t respond to aggression any fight will mostly go away before it turns physical.

So you shouldn’t really have the mindset of “fighting” or think about how you should hurt people. That’s not a healthy attitude.

BTW, Wayne is probably correct.

The way I see it, and I'm sure it's wrong, is that the (for lack of a better term) "posture" of the "heart/xin" informs the "intention/yi". Effectively, we engage with a "heart intention", to harm or protect or dominate, whatever, then the "mind intention" forms the shape the Qi causes the jin to express. At a certain point this is automatic, there is no consciously directing it.

So the state/disposition/posture of our heart controls what sort of response comes out, or HOW, specifically, we adapt to what we receive.

So you have one Yang master who, when surprised by a rude and aggressive attacker, gently repelled him with a chuckle, while another instantly murdered the man.

[everything]

the necessary freedom inside to abstain from unwise choices

1. i don't believe that to be true whatsoever (yeah yeah war torn country)
2. even if it's true, there's your first "self defense" lesson to work on.
3. in any case, that shouldn't apply to "mma fighter" and "airman" in "Florida" (well except for the 10x level of stupidity of "Florida Man")

just levels and levels and levels of stupidity