What are you trying to do in a fight?

[everything]

Yang master

this cat is maybe not going to kill this bird


this cat would probably kill this bird

but humans aren't cats...

[everything]

humans are more like this



hence, the massive stupidity

[windwalker]

just levels and levels and levels of stupidity

Hello

The post wasn't about whether to fight or not....a question as to what one should be doing "in a fight"

one can argue about the levels should one be able to after the encounter...

From a Taijiquan perspective there’s no “try”. You receive what receive, you adapt to what is happening. Looking back at things, I am happy I had a calm, non/aggressive mindset. I’ve been in a few fights when I was young, but I never had any impulse or wish to hurt someone. Mostly I just threw people around until they got tired and quit. So I have never gone to court or to a hospital after any of those times. A couple of youngsters tried to sue me for assault and beating them up. But as they had no visible marks this was dismissed.

However, if you are calm and don’t respond to aggression any fight will mostly go away before it turns physical.

So you shouldn’t really have the mindset of “fighting” or think about how you should hurt people. That’s not a healthy attitude.

BTW, Wayne is probably correct.

Wouldn't agree with Wayne or you ..

both not living in the US, maybe its different.

My uncle in a was shot and killed fighting back as he was being robbed..some 5yrs back.
If he didn't fight, probably would have been shot anyway..

In Taiwan some carry small baseball bats....
saw a group of people going to town on someones car late at night...with their bats...
the car lost..


the OP

"what are you trying to do in a fight ?"


If one is in a fight,,,they should be fighting

not thinking about mindset, perspective , or being one with the universe...

Or levels of stupidity

[windwalker]

Intent to attack or intent to defend? Intent to harmonize or intent to harm? I think some forms of kung fu have what is called the principle of "cruelty", and some do not. Is MMA the same way?

the best way to answer your own question is to go fight

even some protected sparring would help to clear up a lot of things...

push hands, not so good...leads to a lot of false conclusions...

[Bao]

both not living in the US, maybe its different.

My uncle in a was shot and killed fighting back as he was being robbed..some 5yrs back.
If he didn't fight, probably would have been shot anyway..

I remember you told me that. I am sorry.

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. If you live in a violent area, you need to take precautions and be prepared, no doubt about that. Thinking about violence and keep it in your heart is a different thing.

If one is in a fight,,,they should be fighting

not thinking about mindset, perspective , or being one with the universe...

Kind of agree. However, when there's real aggression theirs is psychology involved. The Samurai adapted the Chinese "no-heart/mind" or wu xin (mushin), when they faced a situation they didn't "try" anything or think about what to do. They were taught to empty the mind, keep it totally blank so they would be able to respond spontaneously without thinking and without any kind of mental or emotional hinderance. So the right mindset is what will able you to fight, lack of understanding of how to control your mind could get you killed.

The way I see it, and I'm sure it's wrong, is that the (for lack of a better term) "posture" of the "heart/xin" informs the "intention/yi". Effectively, we engage with a "heart intention", to harm or protect or dominate, whatever, then the "mind intention" forms the shape the Qi causes the jin to express. At a certain point this is automatic, there is no consciously directing it.

So the state/disposition/posture of our heart controls what sort of response comes out, or HOW, specifically, we adapt to what we receive.

So you have one Yang master who, when surprised by a rude and aggressive attacker, gently repelled him with a chuckle, while another instantly murdered the man.

The bolded should be correct. You should act and respond to what is happening and according to what the situation demands.

[windwalker]

I remember you told me that. I am sorry.

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. If you live in a violent area, you need to take precautions and be prepared, no doubt about that. Thinking about violence and keep it in your heart is a different thing.

If one is in a fight,,,they should be fighting

not thinking about mindset, perspective , or being one with the universe...

Kind of agree. However, when there's real aggression theirs is psychology involved. The Samurai adapted the Chinese "no-heart/mind" or wu xin (mushin), when they faced a situation they didn't "try" anything or think about what to do. They were taught to empty the mind, keep it totally blank so they would be able to respond spontaneously without thinking and without any kind of mental or emotional hinderance. So the right mindset is what will able you to fight, lack of understanding of how to control your mind could get you killed.

Thanks for your thoughts,,, finally got a trial now.....one wouldn't believe whats happing at the trial...


All the teachers I've ever trained with except for one, fought in one way or another...

When I work with others "taiji" as the medium...its about fighting, when to. fight, when not to, what to do how to use what we work on...
Understanding what it is to get hit, how to hit, and how to avoid getting hit...

For some, the only way they will really know is to fight with someone intending to fight with them...

For those who compete, as was mentioned if one is not trained and does engage with them,,,in most cases the outcome is not good..
For those getting into a ring, thinking they know,,,with out having done so before...also not a good outcome...

Ng Yim Ming would teach me a move, then send me out in the streets to fight.
If I lost I would have to train twice as hard, so I learned not to lose.
I would join a kung fu school only to defeat it's teacher, then collect twice my money back to leave.

Ng Yim Ming said Hop Gar was a fighting art and must be learned by fighting.

[everything]

if I have to accept the premise, agree with everyone else it all depends, but escape unharmed first seems primary.

when I took some "RBSD" type stuff, multiple LEO types were in (allegedly) unprovoked encounters. we never trained to "fight". they used the "self defense" training with success. would that work against a top mma fighter with "bad intentions" in a "fight"? maybe not. at this point, I still reject all the premises as the assumptions run too wild. how much "prepping" are we talking about? etc. etc. if for some (still insanely stupid in the list of all stupid human activities to engage in, according to me, but we could argue that's also objectively true) reason you need to fight trained fighters for life/death, you better have better training

[wayne hansen]

No I don’t live in the states but if I did I would be more worried about a bullet proof vest
Iron Mike said it Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face
If you are thinking about what you do when you are in a fight it is too late
Do your training then when confrontation comes react
Good or bad the results will show
This is all too obvious in the tai chi masters being set on their arses in China
Don’t worry about getting an insurance policy when your house is on fire

[Appledog]

The way I see it, and I'm sure it's wrong, is that the (for lack of a better term) "posture" of the "heart/xin" informs the "intention/yi". Effectively, we engage with a "heart intention", to harm or protect or dominate, whatever, then the "mind intention" forms the shape the Qi causes the jin to express. At a certain point this is automatic, there is no consciously directing it.

So the state/disposition/posture of our heart controls what sort of response comes out, or HOW, specifically, we adapt to what we receive.

So you have one Yang master who, when surprised by a rude and aggressive attacker, gently repelled him with a chuckle, while another instantly murdered the man.

Yes that is the problem. The left turn is how to train properly. Push hands was created as a nonviolent way to train certain things. Another would be training to target the solar plexus. When you are in a fight you cannot necessarily stop and think about what you are doing and this can lead to some unintended consequences. For example in Han Ching Tan's tantui #5, as passed down authentically by Adam Hsu, you must block and strike at the same time (I believe this is called, with one arm). However the move can be modified to block first in which there is a moment you can prevent yourself from accidentally hitting a target you did not intend to hit -- perhaps, in exactly the same situation you described above -- but say, if a friend surprised you from behind or a friend put his hand on your shoulder.

There is a big difference about being "ready" and "not ready", in the context of being "ready" if a friend surprised you from behind and you trained the first way, he would get hit. The second way... maybe he wouldn't get hit.

In the Yang family this is why they removed the head of the spear, because it was too dangerous to train the technique as it was. They needed to create a safe way to train. I feel for this reason many dangerous and harmful applications should not be taught. How much is too much? If you know something, should you really know it? How can you say even you are responsible? Can you admit that it may have been a mistake that you learned something?

[Quigga]

From a Taijiquan perspective there’s no “try”. You receive what receive, you adapt to what is happening. Looking back at things, I am happy I had a calm, non/aggressive mindset. I’ve been in a few fights when I was young, but I never had any impulse or wish to hurt someone. Mostly I just threw people around until they got tired and quit. So I have never gone to court or to a hospital after any of those times. A couple of youngsters tried to sue me for assault and beating them up. But as they had no visible marks this was dismissed.

However, if you are calm and don’t respond to aggression any fight will mostly go away before it turns physical.

So you shouldn’t really have the mindset of “fighting” or think about how you should hurt people. That’s not a healthy attitude.

BTW, Wayne is probably correct.

The way I see it, and I'm sure it's wrong, is that the (for lack of a better term) "posture" of the "heart/xin" informs the "intention/yi". Effectively, we engage with a "heart intention", to harm or protect or dominate, whatever, then the "mind intention" forms the shape the Qi causes the jin to express. At a certain point this is automatic, there is no consciously directing it.

So the state/disposition/posture of our heart controls what sort of response comes out, or HOW, specifically, we adapt to what we receive.

So you have one Yang master who, when surprised by a rude and aggressive attacker, gently repelled him with a chuckle, while another instantly murdered the man.

I actually quite like your understanding of it.

Your 'posture / stance / attitude' on life, your viewpoint, directly influences the way you move. Subtle, but directly. As in, 'What's your stance on X issue'? The more layers this has, the more Yin Yang shifting side it includes while still resulting in a harmonious end result, the more profound / deeper it is.

Keeping in mind that the highest virtues of Taoism are softness, unforced kindness, understanding of emptiness, being in a natural flow. Like water nourishes all things without ever trying to. Heart is pumping blood. Qi behaves a lot like water. The blood is actually spinning inside the vessels, not flowing straight. The highest degree of relaxation allows for the best flow inside. Balancing the flows in all areas of the body, results in a big harmonious tide where all parts work together according to their function. Mentally releasing, and not getting lost, results in a calm and pure heart eventually, which naturally results in a vital body. I'm oversimplifying a bit, but it's more poetic that way lol.

This is one reason why Tai Chi (in my understanding) focuses on listening, evasiveness and adapting.

The contents of your heart dictate the quality of your movement. Eventually you can let go of more and more control of intent and let it be more autonomous, tho be careful to not make mistakes with that. 'You get back what you put in. Not more, not less.'

Re the two Yang masters... imo it's obvious which one of them has the easier, more harmonious life and whom people would like to spend more time with

[Quigga]

the necessary freedom inside to abstain from unwise choices

1. i don't believe that to be true whatsoever (yeah yeah war torn country)
2. even if it's true, there's your first "self defense" lesson to work on.
3. in any case, that shouldn't apply to "mma fighter" and "airman" in "Florida" (well except for the 10x level of stupidity of "Florida Man")

just levels and levels and levels of stupidity

1. what do you believe to be untrue about it?
2. first lesson, keep yourself out of mischief. i agree
3. why shouldn't it apply, what's your reasoning?

stupidity shows us where we can grow if we listen... but nobody can force another's decision

[Quigga]

just levels and levels and levels of stupidity

Hello

The post wasn't about whether to fight or not....a question as to what one should be doing "in a fight"

one can argue about the levels should one be able to after the encounter...

From a Taijiquan perspective there’s no “try”. You receive what receive, you adapt to what is happening. Looking back at things, I am happy I had a calm, non/aggressive mindset. I’ve been in a few fights when I was young, but I never had any impulse or wish to hurt someone. Mostly I just threw people around until they got tired and quit. So I have never gone to court or to a hospital after any of those times. A couple of youngsters tried to sue me for assault and beating them up. But as they had no visible marks this was dismissed.

However, if you are calm and don’t respond to aggression any fight will mostly go away before it turns physical.

So you shouldn’t really have the mindset of “fighting” or think about how you should hurt people. That’s not a healthy attitude.

BTW, Wayne is probably correct.

Wouldn't agree with Wayne or you ..

both not living in the US, maybe its different.

My uncle in a was shot and killed fighting back as he was being robbed..some 5yrs back.
If he didn't fight, probably would have been shot anyway..

In Taiwan some carry small baseball bats....
saw a group of people going to town on someones car late at night...with their bats...
the car lost..


the OP

"what are you trying to do in a fight ?"


If one is in a fight,,,they should be fighting

not thinking about mindset, perspective , or being one with the universe...

Or levels of stupidity

Sorry to hear that... you sure he wouldn't still be alive if he just handed over his belongings? I'm being insensitive, I know. In some very bad situations it's easier to just kill the victim outright than to deal with potential backlash... South America comes to mind...

Poverty breeds violence, or not? Less to lose, desperation, even law enforcement being scared to do their job. Concrete jungle

If I'm in the gym and lift a weight, I also don't think about the details of my nutrition plan...

[Quigga]

WW, what trial are you in?

[Quigga]

If you are the sea - wild, vast, calm, mysterious, boundless without breaking - you just swallow what's being sent in your direction, let it sink and if neccessary respond with appropriate action. How can you offer resistance if you resist nothing and envelop, embrace all there is with open arms and heart

[everything]

I'm not really following the stereotypes about poverty or dangerous locations.

The poor people I've met from some dangerous places didn't say they turned to violence. One lady told me she found a dead body in her neighbor's yard and dared not say anything to anyone. But it didn't make her choose violence. Again, I'll say it's stupidity (among all the infinite choices humans can make) and leave the thread. Of course there are all kinds of other stupidity that are nearly as high risk and maybe not at all motivated by intent for violence (and we can see some of these in traffic almost every day).