the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

wayne hansen wrote:If we consider YCF 10 essential points to be part of the classics
And I do
Chen certaially don’t follow the classics

windwalker wrote:The right way for what ? [...] At the time, the slow and gentle nature of Yang style Taijiquan was considered the standard of Taijiquan. does it change much ? For some maybe,,,,others may be not..

The above quotes got me thinking. What exactly are Yang Cheng-Fu's 10 important points, where do they come from, and most importantly [b]how, exactly do you train them in Tai Chi? This last point being, of course, the most important and vital aspect of the 10 points.

1. What are the 10 points?
There are quite a few discussions online but I like the PDF at https://www.rockymountaintaichi.com/ycf-10-points because it is comprehensive. I'll use that one and give my own understanding, feel free to point out differences in translation or understanding, as mine is limited.

* Xu Ling Ding Jin (I read: "suspend the headtop as if from above")
* Contain the Chest, Raise the Back (don't stick out the chest or raise the sternum. this is a rounded posture similar to tree hugging)
* Song the Yao (relax the waist--for example do not squeeze the waist when turning in wave hands like clouds)
* Separate Empty and Full (i will just say, learn to sink onto one leg at the appropriate times, more or less,)
* Sink Shoulder, Drop Elbow (like settling the wrist, also settle shoulder, elbow, ...)
* Use Yi, Don't Use Li (like magnets pushing and pulling/like threading, circulating)
* Upper and Lower Mutually Follow (if there is a question of hands follow body or body follows hands, try a direct approach)
* Inner and Outer Mutually Harmonize (inner follows outer or outer follows innner, try a direct approach)
* Mutually Linked Without Gaps (whole body)
* Move Center, Seek Stillness ("Make your breathing profound, Sink the qi to the dantian,")

Of course, there are many more principles not included here -- I think someone mentioned Dong Yingjie's 20 important principles. In our Chen style we train these and other principles as well. What's more, a lot of them are related. The quote from #10 could be applied to inform #4 for example, as they are all very similar. A lot of them are related to opening various joints and qi blockages. But how is this done, exactly? How exactly do you train these principles in your system? How long does it take the average person to be able to embody these principles in the form? Does your school focus on these principles, or other principles?

Two things
One if you train Chen you break many of these points so it dosent apply to you just like it dosent apply to wing chun
Two this version is not very good

wayne hansen wrote:Two things
One if you train Chen you break many of these points so it dosent apply to you just like it dosent apply to wing chun
Two this version is not very good

I'm sure that is your experience. In fact it is also mine -- as well, I would point out, many Yang style people also break these points on a regular basis!

However, the exercises themselves are independent of the style of Tai Chi using them to train the points. So the style is irrelevant. I already explained how in my branch we teach and train the underlying exercises which Yang Cheng-Fu must have known in order to inform his 10 important points. Of course if you want we could discuss Chen style, but it would be of limited benefit. I am sure many of the exercises we use are also used by the Yang family. But any specific example you could point to would be welcome.

Could you suggest a better version please? Is there a specific problem with this version that does not, for example, convey a nuance of the original Chinese?

Mr. Hansen,

I have practiced both Yang and Chen's style, and am curious as to how you think Chen breaks the 10 essential rules?

Appledog wrote:* Contain the Chest, Raise the Back (don't stick out the chest or raise the sternum. this is a rounded posture similar to tree hugging) ...

This is bad posture.



You should expand your chest and be able to hold a pencil with your back muscle.



You don't want to wear posture corrector through your old age.

image hosting sites

johnwang wrote:

Appledog wrote:* Contain the Chest, Raise the Back (don't stick out the chest or raise the sternum. this is a rounded posture similar to tree hugging) ...

This is bad posture.

I agree that is bad. I believe this is the principle that direction could be pointing at

Bad posture - spine is bending.



Good posture - back leg, body, head make a perfect straight line (spine is straight).



You don't need high IQ to understand which one is good and which one is bad.

johnwang wrote:

Appledog wrote:* Contain the Chest, Raise the Back (don't stick out the chest or raise the sternum. this is a rounded posture similar to tree hugging) ...

This is bad posture.

1. Empty, Lively, Pushing Up and Energetic

‘Pushing up and energetic’ means the posture of the head is upright and straight and the spirit is infused into its apex.

Not only does the picture you posted violate Essential Number One
Essential Number Two never said use an extreme bad posture like the picture you posted.
It repeatedly emphasizes the word "Slightly"

2. Hold in the Chest and Slightly Round The Back

The phrase ‘hold in the chest’ means the chest is slightly reserved inward, which causes the chi to sink to the dantian. The chest must not be puffed out; if you do so then the chi is blocked in the chest region. The upper body becomes heavy and the lower body light, and it will become easy for the heels to float upward. ‘Slightly round the back’ makes the chi stick to the back. If you are able to hold in the chest then you will naturally be able to slightly round the back. If you can slightly round the back, then you will be able to emit strength from the spine, which others cannot oppose.

That picture you posted is just as funny as saying "Hey, These are bad wheels!"



You don't need high IQ to understand that bricks are not the best wheels.

Here's a few photos of the Yang Chengfu & Yan Jun.
Neither, use the extreme back posture that you suggest

I have seen a lot of Chen and most I have seen
Close the back
Protrude the chest
Lift the elbows
Yes plenty of other styles also do this including those who call themselves Yang
I like TT LIANGS version

Trip wrote:The phrase ‘hold in the chest’ means the chest is slightly reserved inward,

Bad is bad. "Slightly" bad is still bad.

Why do you even want to have "slightly" inward chest, later on to spend a lot of effort to fix your posture? You don't need to train "slightly" inward chest, when you get older, you will get inward chest.

When I help old people to fix inward chest, at the same time I can see some young people train inward chest, it just makes no sense to me.

To prevent problem from happening is better than to let the problem happen and then try to fix it.

johnwang wrote:

Trip wrote:The phrase ‘hold in the chest’ means the chest is slightly reserved inward,

Bad is bad. "Slightly" bad is still bad.

Yang Style does not teach that back posture.
It seems like this Humped back thing is your incorrect interpretation of what Yang's Essential #2 is saying.
(An incorrect interpretation that you keep insisting on!)

So, please show where in The Ten Essentials
it says, make a humped back & drop your head forward?"

I mean, in the video you posted, look where his ears are!
They are out of line with his shoulders

Also, the direction of the "hump" in the pictures and video you posted
is not even the correct way to slightly round your chest.

Your picture shows a folding downward of the chest,
kind of like a towel hanging down from a towel rack.
Folding downward is not the correct direction.

The correct way to slightly sink the chest
is done in different direction than your example pictures.

If you learn things correctly
You won't get anywhere near the "humped back" problem shown in your pictures.

In the pictures below
Do you see Yang Jun demonstrating the type of humped back
that matches the humped back in any of the videos you posted?

Is the the top of his back leaning out of line with the rest of his torso?
Does his head hang downward so that his ears are out of alignment with his torso?

johnwang wrote:Why do you even want to have "slightly" inward chest.

Some of the benefits include:
Causing the Qi chi to sink to the dantien
Helps with rooting

A slight Extension from your upper back all the way to the fingertips
Releases strength from the spine out through your hands

Lots of different approaches, as always

I'd say the posture that allows you to access the most of your fascia is best. By letting your muscles hang off the skeleton, working on unknotting / unwinding the fascia so it can take any shape that's appropriate at the moment, relaxing the nervous system and by extension the muscles, you naturally will use all of your body with the biggest stretch inside connecting the 5 ends via lower dantian. Doesn't matter if the outside movement shows closing or opening, sinking or rising, left or right, the inside sensation stays the same.

Oh and ofc, the bigger the relaxation of heart-mind, the more released the muscles, the better aligned the bones, the more smooth unbreaking connected the fascia, the bigger the stretch, the less muscular effort and less subjectively experienced straining when issuing force, the bigger the force generated

Actually you could start working at any point, as long as you include methods for each part. Tho ofc some roads are bumpier than others...

Letting the spine hang unfortunately results in a bit of a unsexy posture imo Beauty standards etc

professional level trolling 11/10