Ting and Dong and silent sounds

[origami_itto]

Ting jin and dong jin are kind of confusing to me.

They are usually translated as listening energy and interpreting energy. Ting jin is a lower (than dong) level, fundamental, skill and dongjin is like the key to it all, so they say. "How can one be beaten when they have mastered interpreting energy"

So how do you understand that? Do you agree?

When it comes to ting jin, I always thought of the listening as a bit metaphorical, like we're talking about a sense in the body primarily. I'm starting to question the role of the ear in the skill. Our sense of balance is rooted in the ear, any disturbance of or change to that balance or our orientation relative to gravity is registered and interpreted as something we may take action about.

In elite athletes this sensitivity is even more developed. Simone Biles in the last Olympics described a temporary inner ear or psychological dysfunction that prevented her from being able to sense her position in space, which made her acrobatics too dangerous to risk.

In taijiquan we're told that "neither can a fly alight or a feather take landing" or something like that without the entire body being set into motion. Could it be that disturbances to our equilibrium as slight as a few ounces or less can be registered in the ear?

Inside the ear resides an organ attuned entirely to detecting vibration. Vibration travels so efficiently through bone that chewing with a closed mouth can sound like a booming cacaphony with no noticeable vibration being perceived in the mouth and jaw.

Research has shown that grasping a solid object like a stick on the other side of a screen, pretty much anybody can identify where on the length of the stick it is being struck or rubbed.

Clearly we can perceive strong enough vibrations in our hands and bodies, but we can also perceive subtler vibrations in the ear itself, and we can receive vibrations subconsciously more subtly than we can even perceive. Low frequency vibrations, for example, don't necessarily register consciously but can cause discomfort and illness and disorientation as the fluid in the inner ear is disturbed.

So my dawning understanding is that all of these contribute to create ting jin, the perception of movement and vibration in the body, and by extension a greater understanding of things external to the body that affect it directly physically, such as another person trying to push you over.

The quieter and more receptive and more relaxed our minds and bodies and nervous systems are, the more we can perceive and interpret these vibrations, both internal and external to our bodies. Shifting fluid and tendons and bone and gaseous pockets internally create vibrations that travel through the frame to move the cochlea and create the sensation of sound. It can get very noisy in the silence.

So then what is dong jin or interpreting energy? Is it awareness of qi as bioelectric energy? Is it awareness of the intrinsic physical kinetic and potential energy in the body in movement and stillness? Is it both of these? What are your thoughts about this?

[everything]

interesting questions.

at the "ultimate physics" level, everything (matter or energy) is possibly "strings vibrating". "vibrations".

at the "ear physics" level, no idea if it's "silent sounds". or "vibrations".

so either way, "vibrations" (or "qi") is a good enough "placeholder". some people say something something "fascia" as well. call it x. suppose we don't really know what x is or how it works and aren't likely to for a long time. decent enough placeholders.

so how do we subjectively experience it (and develop it) to the extent possible (even at non elite athlete leve) becomes the question. which is probably the most interesting one here. but counter-intuitively, a lot of (many? most?) people don't like talking about it.

[Appledog]

interesting questions. [...]

so how do we subjectively experience it (and develop it) to the extent possible becomes the question. which is probably the most interesting one here. but counter-intuitively, a lot of (many? most?) people don't like talking about it.

Well my fine feathered friend, we are going to run into two kinds of people. One kind will be the kind that says "Some people say, but others say, yet I read in a book, but my master said, and my second cousin had a story about..." and the other kind will, after many years, realize that you're not going to like the answer so they won't invest the time or energy in typing out a detailed response. They're bored of it, I think. You get burned out on these so-called "message boards", people get a little disillusioned, they make posts about needing to make some kind of "personal journey" or "taking time off for what matters" -- the kids, the dog, whatever.

Then there is the question of how much instruction you want for free, and even beyond that, how much you want in advance. A great example is Andrea Faulk's Chaquan book. Translated from the Chinese -- so I guess it's not her fault. She even included an extra little book an an expanded introduction. Because the book itself is useless, containing nothing but endless forms and hand-drawn pictures with move names describing things like "horse stance punch". The introduction explicitly discusses all of the deep methods and drills of chaquan but then says none of them will be mentioned in the book. It then goes on to give some quips from the "classics" -- "the classics say, ..." but where, even, are these mysterious chaquan classics? Overall a disappointing book, unless you have learned directly from the author, I suppose, and use it as a memory tool for that one-off move you forget. Ahh, so it has it's use. It shouldn't have been that obscure tho.

Aaaaaaanyways, what was the question here, exactly? Something about some ears? I don't have any ears of corn. That does remind me however, about back in the good old days about the war. They changed the helments you see, made them better. They had wider rims. But the injuries went up and the doctors couldn't figure it out. Then they realized that the injuries went up because more people were surviving, but with injuries. So they worked, but you couldn't have known that until you went through the process of the war and saw the results of the new helmets. I think the ear idea is a lot like that. Even if you are right, you still need to go through the traditional training method to get results and understand it. Secondly it's ting jing, dong (understanding) jing, and jie (catching, or intercepting) energy. You also have polite energy, guest energy, ask energy, sit energy, enter energy. Lots of ideas can happen.

One ting (sorry,, thing) you have to be careful about though is this so-called traditional training method. You cannot learn a style, you can only learn a teacher. A large majority of modern day tai chi that I have seen is essentially taking the names of the movements and skills and putting them in random order so the names don't match the skills, but moreso dangerous is the introduction of borrowed training methods. Don't be someone's pet scientific experiment to see if something works that they didn't learn from their teacher. Unless you want to. No accounting for taste. I once met this guy who showed me "that obvious white crane move" and said "haaaaaa!" and said this was the secret of Tai Chi. It took everything I had to avoid laughing in his face. I also saw these one guys doing karate as warmups. Well, their form looked like karate so I guess they were on the right track, somehow??? I once saw these guys doing 50 minutes of chi kung and then 10 minutes of form. I once saw these guys who were literally playing meow meow pattycakes and called it push hands. I even saw people taking 2 man drills from praying mantis and calling it tai chi. Even well known schools do this. Have you ever seen Chang Hong's "tai chi"? Well, you can't say it's NOT Tai Chi I guess. But what a wild ride that one must be.

Stay frosty out there San Diego. Because that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[everything]

they won't invest the time or energy in typing out a detailed response. They're bored of it, I think.

exactly. this is why OTT is probably best for discussion topics.

[robert]

Ting jin and dong jin are kind of confusing to me.

They are usually translated as listening energy and interpreting energy. Ting jin is a lower (than dong) level, fundamental, skill and dongjin is like the key to it all, so they say. "How can one be beaten when they have mastered interpreting energy"

So how do you understand that? Do you agree?

When it comes to ting jin, I always thought of the listening as a bit metaphorical, like we're talking about a sense in the body primarily. I'm starting to question the role of the ear in the skill. Our sense of balance is rooted in the ear, any disturbance of or change to that balance or our orientation relative to gravity is registered and interpreted as something we may take action about.

They are both jin and the fundamental idea of jin the that the body is connected. Listening is a metaphor, we're really feeling. If a person is feeling with their jin, then you can ask how complete is their jin? If they can only sink their qi to their dantian they are only feeling with their upper body; if they can sink their qi to their feet, they may be able to feel with their whole body. Dong can be translated as understanding. It's one thing to listen and another to understand. There are two aspects to understanding, one is what is the person's opponent doing? Are they pushing or pulling? To the left or right? And so on. The second part to understanding is how to use jin to respond to the opponent. Whether a person can beat their opponent depends on the opponent's skill level, mass, physical condition, and so on. HTH.

[Doc Stier]

As a general observation regarding many thread topics, over thinking things only produces hypothetical theories and lots of unsubstantiated conjecture, but doesn't generate greater skills. Perhaps it would be more productive to think less and feel more in order to starve your distractions and feed your focus in higher quality training time.

[windwalker]

Ting jin and dong jin are kind of confusing to me.

They are usually translated as listening energy and interpreting energy. Ting jin is a lower (than dong) level, fundamental, skill and dongjin is like the key to it all, so they say. "How can one be beaten when they have mastered interpreting energy"

So how do you understand that? Do you agree?

Yes / No

With out developing ting jin, no other 勁 (Jin) is possible
how would it be ?

The ability to sense and feel what drives movement, what is intention.
A fundamental part of the practice..first finding it within one's self and then outside ones self with others.


Once one understands/ demonstrates this, they have achieved what some call "dong jin "

The ability to know how to allow the generated 勁 (Jin) to move ones own body "solo practice" to develop it..
what to do and how to act/react when its used by others on ones own body.

"How can one be beaten when they have mastered interpreting energy"

The Chinese have a saying, they have many sayings


有山，山后还有山。

There are mountains, and there are mountains behind the mountains.

[wayne hansen]

Without being given the gift of ting Jin by your teacher there is no other Jin

[windwalker]

so how do we subjectively experience it (and develop it) to the extent possible (even at non elite athlete leve) becomes the question. which is probably the most interesting one here. but counter-intuitively, a lot of (many? most?) people don't like talking about it.

practice taiji

Aside from having a teacher, teaching what ever one is looking for...
Might drop what one thinks "it" is.
Allowing what "it "is to inform one through the practice itself.

Sometimes a problem for those who've practiced a long time and still have not found "it"

In some cases they already have "it" the "it" not matching what they "think" "it" is "it" remains an illusion existing only in their mind.

In other cases when presented with "it" they are unable to give up what they feel "it" is
and keep looking, or worse attempt to discredit those who have "it"

talking about "it" is common among those who have or are close to "it"

having a common frame work the discussion is not about what "it" is,
more about how to develop, improve and use "it"

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

練習揉手要有正確的目的。揉手又名推手。揉手的目的是為了校正練習者對拳術理論不正確的 理解，發現並糾正學習拳架時的不正確的練法，以及不正確的揉手方法，避免出現偏差而走入 吱途。有些人對揉手沒有正確的理解，認為揉手只是為了一爭高下，因而在練習時，拳友之間 往往容易產生誤會和摩擦，甚至傷害身體。這種偏差是由於缺少教養或違反武德，而在揉手中 摻雜了非太極拳的拆手、散打，以及反關節擒拿等招術，使揉手形成了較力的緣故。

Practice rubbing hands with the right purpose. Rubbing hands is also known as pushing hands. The purpose of rubbing hands is to correct practitioners' incorrect understanding of boxing theory, discover and correct incorrect training methods when learning boxing, and incorrect hand-rubbing methods, so as to avoid deviations and go into the path of squeaking. Some people do not have a correct understanding of hand rubbing, and think that rubbing hands is just for competition.

Therefore, during practice, misunderstandings and frictions between boxers are often easy to cause, and even harm the body.

This deviation is due to the lack of education or the violation of martial ethics, and non-Tai Chi techniques such as dismantling hands, Sanda, and anti-joint grappling are mixed in the rubbing hands, which makes the rubbing hands more powerful.

不要誤認為揉手就是專門學技擊友人的，一味追求技擊效果。這種錯誤理解和意圖，有可能造 成身體的宿瘓。對此，青少年練習者應當特別注意。

Don't mistakenly think that rubbing hands is for friends who specialize in martial arts, and blindly pursue the effect of martial arts.
This kind of misunderstanding and intention may cause paralysis of the body. In this regard, young practitioners should pay special attention.

Don't practice PH with the intent of becoming better at PH..leading the practice to become an end unto itself.
The practice should be approached as a tool for understanding and answering questions, such as those asked here..

練習揉手主要是為了"懂勁兒"為了練成真正的太極功夫，而不是為了爭強好勝，以致不擇手 段。我的老師楊澄甫說，揉手時，要用太極拳的功夫贏人，才能讓對方口服心服。

Practicing rubbing hands is mainly for understanding "勁 (Jin)" and for practicing real Tai Chi Kung Fu, not for the sake of being competitive, so that you will use any means. My teacher Yang Chengfu said that when rubbing hands, you have to use Taijiquan to win people, so that they can be convinced.

nope not easy, even with a good teacher to guide one...truly a method of self inquiry

[Bao]

When it comes to ting jin, I always thought of the listening as a bit metaphorical,

Why metaphorical? Tingjin means sensitivity skill.

In taijiquan we're told that "neither can a fly alight or a feather take landing" or something like that without the entire body being set into motion. Could it be that disturbances to our equilibrium as slight as a few ounces or less can be registered in the ear?

Why are you fixated about the ear. Ting means listening with the skin, it has nothing to do with the ear.

So my dawning understanding is that all of these contribute to create ting jin, the perception of movement and vibration in the body, and by extension a greater understanding of things external to the body that affect it directly physically, such as another person trying to push you over.

How would feeling vibration in the body help your sensitivity?

The quieter and more receptive and more relaxed our minds and bodies and nervous systems are, the more we can perceive and interpret these vibrations, both internal and external to our bodies.

What kind of vibrations, what should they feel like inside of the body?

Can you refer to just one(1) of the old masters who spoke about being sensitive about vibrations inside of your body?

[origami_itto]

When it comes to ting jin, I always thought of the listening as a bit metaphorical,

Why metaphorical? Tingjin means sensitivity skill.

In taijiquan we're told that "neither can a fly alight or a feather take landing" or something like that without the entire body being set into motion. Could it be that disturbances to our equilibrium as slight as a few ounces or less can be registered in the ear?

Why are you fixated about the ear. Ting means listening with the skin, it has nothing to do with the ear.

lis·ten
verb
give one's attention to a sound.

If it is true listening it's done with the ear. If it's done with the skin it's metaphorical listening.

The ear is fundamental to balance.

So my dawning understanding is that all of these contribute to create ting jin, the perception of movement and vibration in the body, and by extension a greater understanding of things external to the body that affect it directly physically, such as another person trying to push you over.

How would feeling vibration in the body help your sensitivity?

I think it's best understood the other way around.

The quieter and more receptive and more relaxed our minds and bodies and nervous systems are, the more we can perceive and interpret these vibrations, both internal and external to our bodies.

What kind of vibrations, what should they feel like inside of the body?

For instance the sound of fluid rushing through the body, or related to others and vibration, more like sonar, not necessarily consciously perceived as such, but informing our awareness. The means by which we know where they touch the wood on the other side of the screen.

Can you refer to just one(1) of the old masters who spoke about being sensitive about vibrations inside of your body?

No, but then they talk around a lot of things.

[Doc Stier]

Jasoni-San: As Bao stated above, the 'listening' skill of ting-jin refers to the trained ability to be constantly aware of what is felt at physical points of contact with ever greater sensitivity in order to quickly and effectively respond to same. It has nothing to do with audible sounds heard with the ears.

That's why ting-jin is a primary component in traditional, non-competitive tui-shou training with a partner. The agenda priority is to think less and feel more. However, as always, ymmv.

[wayne hansen]

An inch of meditation an inch of Buddha
Jin can only be understood by hours of hands on work with a skilled teacher
It is a gift from hand to hand
That is why zoom teaching is a con and only good for transferring money not Jin
Listening is an attitude and nothing to do with balance or ears
At its finest it is on an atomic level each cell recieving and transmitting
This depends on the skill of the teacher
It can’t be confused with leverage or tricks they lead away from the path
Nor is it hidden in the hippy hoppy world of self delusion
This is real lineage not written on a piece of paper or shown in photos with known masters !
It is real transferable rare a treasure shared by few

[origami_itto]

Jasoni-San: As Bao stated above, the 'listening' skill of ting-jin refers to the trained ability to be constantly aware of what is felt at physical points of contact with ever greater sensitivity in order to quickly and effectively respond to same. It has nothing to do with audible sounds heard with the ears.

That's why ting-jin is a primary component in traditional, non-competitive tui-shou training with a partner. The agenda priority is to think less and feel more. However, as always, ymmv.

That's what I mean by metaphorical listening. Listening is sound, sound is ears, if it's sensed with the skin then listening may be the closest word.

And yes, as always, for every paragraph I type, I spend hours in practice, I mean it's expected, right? But we can strive to get a better feeling for what is happening inside our bodies by thinking, questioning, and examining. That's literally the entire field of science and human knowledge. It's fun to use our brains. Kung Fu is a laboratory, not a museum, YMMV.

We give free play to our opponent's force and after weighing it...

The ear contains the organ for this in the human body. Everything we do or know is bound by the function of some organ or another. How can we say the ear is not involved in listening to energy and understanding the meaning of our opponent's movements. I mean there are folks claiming things that transcend anatomy but they haven't shown me anything more compelling than science so far.

It's not like we consciously use our ears to maintain our balance, they just do it. Whenever it is disturbed, specialized cells in our ear detect the disturbance and send messages to our brain to re-establish balance without any conscious input or knowledge on our part. We automatically know how to respond to that disturbance and stay standing... usually.

Loop-shaped canals in your inner ear contain fluid and fine, hairlike sensors that help you keep your balance. At the base of the canals are the utricle and saccule, each containing a patch of sensory hair cells. Within these cells are tiny particles (otoconia) that help monitor the position of your head in relation to gravity and linear motion, such as going up and down in an elevator or moving forward and backward in a car.

This is separate but related to the sound of fa jin thread on facebook.

It's just so fun to see where people's minds take them.

[origami_itto]

An inch of meditation an inch of Buddha
Jin can only be understood by hours of hands on work with a skilled teacher
It is a gift from hand to hand
That is why zoom teaching is a con and only good for transferring money not Jin
Listening is an attitude and nothing to do with balance or ears
At its finest it is on an atomic level each cell recieving and transmitting
This depends on the skill of the teacher
It can’t be confused with leverage or tricks they lead away from the path
Nor is it hidden in the hippy hoppy world of self delusion
This is real lineage not written on a piece of paper or shown in photos with known masters !
It is real transferable rare a treasure shared by few

Well, you know... one must make do with what one can get.