Leading arm jam back arm

[johnwang]

How to guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm is an important CMA concept. If you can use 1 arm to control both of your opponent's arms, you will have 1 free arm to attack him.

What's your opinion on this?

[origami_itto]

I'm a fan of that, but really you can do the same thing in all kinds of ways. If you've got an arm then you can use it to interrupt and jam any sort of attempt at an offensive movement.

[marvin8]

Thomas Marx - Original Jeet Kune Do IFO
Dec 17, 2022

The best, super, advanced level something...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGF5fhQThug

[yeniseri]

That is the essence of CMA! Maintain contact and manuever with the enemy at 'contact points" along the body to be successful.

[johnwang]

There is a difference between "jam" and "press". Leading arm Jam back arm is easier. Leading arm press back arm is much harder. So far all the videos show "press".

Here is an example of jam. As long as you can push your opponent's leading arm across his body, you have achieved the goal of jamming (your opponent's back arm cannot hit you).

[Appledog]

People who are already masters when they learn taichi don't start over from the fundamentals but will usually try to incorporate taichi into what they already do, and it inevitably simultaneously improves what they are doing, works similar to Tai Chi, and fails at being self-contained.

When you ask a person like this to teach you tai chi, you spend half your time learning a different art, which is then used to support the attached understanding of tai chi. It's kind of like using ba duan jin as a warmup for yang cheng fu form. Yes there is something to it, yes it can work, but...

Also, the underlying theories will inevitably be borrowed from whatever art is in question. Nothing you learn is "transferrable" to any such similar school. What has been done is essentially the creation of a new style, and set against all other schools like salmon swimming in a pond. Now if we make the claim that one generation can beat ten, this is certainly possible, but even if it is true you will need to wait for your lifetime to find out.

You see this with both Adams and many other popular branches of Tai Chi plus X. What they teach works, but it is not the same as what is taught by the Yangs, Chens or Wus. It just isn't. And that's fine. Everything is fine.

[johnwang]

People who are already masters when they learn taichi don't start over from the fundamentals but will usually try to incorporate taichi into what they already do, ...

This is true. All my friends who trains Taiji have other CMA as their foundation. GM Han Ching Tang trained Taiji too. He had never demonstrated Taiji in public. My long fist teacher won't teach any student Taiji until they had 3 years long fist training.

[Appledog]

People who are already masters when they learn taichi don't start over from the fundamentals but will usually try to incorporate taichi into what they already do, ...

This is true. All my friends who trains Taiji have other CMA as their foundation. GM Han Ching Tang trained Taiji too. He had never demonstrated Taiji in public. My long fist teacher won't teach any student Taiji until they had 3 years long fist training.

Wang Zi-Ping insisted that even tai chi students do tantui every day as a foundation. My sifu Kelly had the same idea, to learn how to be soft you must first learn to be hard. I tend to agree. The funny thing is the deeper I look, I see the same thing in the family styles. The question then is how much (longfist, etc.) do you really need. Three years is a lot, if your going to do 3 years maybe you should just go all the way.

I thought about just trying to learn (chaquan) and go deep on that, since I like it just as much as Tai Chi and I seem to be good at tantui, but it's much harder to find a proper teacher of something like longfist or chaquan. If you think learning taichi is hard and can end in a dead end road try chaquan. For starters, you have 10x the forms to learn in the beginning. Longfist is the same right? I think at this point in my life there is no hope of ever getting anywhere in something like longfist and I had better just count my chickens with tai chi. I am too old to learn anything new and I will just suffer and cry in silence and do tantui one more time.

[johnwang]

If you think learning taichi is hard and can end in a dead end road try chaquan. For starters, you have 10x the forms to learn in the beginning. Longfist is the same right?

In my high school long fist informal class, I had to learn 11 open hand forms and 8 weapon forms within 3 years.

11 open hand forms:

- 10 roads Tan Tui,
- Lien Bu Chuan (Shaolin dragon form),
- Gong Li Chuan (from Gong Li system),
- Mai Fu 1st road,
- Mai Fu 2nd road,
- Xi Zi Tan (a left handed form),
- Pao Chuan 3rd road,
- Si Lou Ben Da (from praying mantis system),
- Shao Hu Yen (from praying mantis system),
- Cha Chuan 4th road,
- emperor long fist,

8 Weapon forms:

- Kung Wu staff,
- 7 stars knife,
- Bagua knife,
- San Tzi sword,
- Kung Wu sword,
- Yang's family spear,
- Knife against spear,
- Dai Dao against spear,

One day when you get older, memory is the only thing that you have left. QAQ T_T

[Bob]

Interestingly Han Qing Tan's daughter in the early 1980s performed his Yang style taijiquan publicly at a demonstration at MIT - I've watched the vhs segment and she does it well - she also did the Yang taiji sword too at that time.

[Bao]

What's your opinion on this?

Jamming someone's arm or inhibit his ability to move freely is always a good method.

Circling the opponent's arm is unnecessary though. Also, deflecting by adding pressure at the elbow or upper arm is more efficient if you want to cross someone's arm over his centerline. Only a small move will be necessary.

[johnwang]

Circling the opponent's arm is unnecessary though. Also, deflecting by adding pressure at the elbow or upper arm is more efficient if you want to cross someone's arm over his centerline. Only a small move will be necessary.

You don't use this principle when your opponent punches you. You use it when your opponent is on guard.

I agree that straight line motion is faster than circular motion. Here is another example.

[twocircles13]

This is easy to do in a demo, where everything is slowed down and friendly, and it shows some really good principles that everyone should know. But, it is not so easy and takes a lot practice to pull off with a non-cooperative opponent. Practice also teaches you what happens and what you need to do if it fails.

I am glad you mentioned that the opponent is on a guard, because it is even harder to pull off on a well executed punch. It’s also good to use if they are contacting your arm to try to control it, kind of a reversal.

There are two rules I have used to help in both situations.
1. Make contact above the elbow. I think Hsu Laoshi mentions controlling the elbow elsewhere.

With one teacher, we trained if we felt a block or other contact below the elbow to immediately fold in the forearm and step in to attack with the elbow or shoulder. If they block you above the elbow on the upper arm, release the whole arm, step in, and shoulder strike. It’s almost comical how many people don’t train or expect this. Of course, you don’t stop there, but you continue your attacks until they have succumbed or are able to get out of range.

2. Always point your fingers toward your opponent’s center, centerline or a vulnerable area, and be ready to attack as soon as there is an opening.

Among other things, this causes your hand and fingers to align with the long bones of the opponent’s arm when you make contact and give you a lot more control. For example, if you are contacting them above the elbow and they try to shoulder strike, as in Rule 1 above, a properly connected hand on the upper arm will either signal you of their intention, so you can counter, or help physically move you out of the way as they step in.

Controlling the arms and binding them is a whole course of study, more than just one technique, but this is a good place to start.

[origami_itto]

I've found the points of best total control of the opponent to be the back of the elbow and the wrist.

[johnwang]

This is easy to do in a demo, where everything is slowed down and friendly, and it shows some really good principles that everyone should know. But, it is not so easy and takes a lot practice to pull off with a non-cooperative opponent.

This is why you will need a little set up to be able to control your opponent's arm. When your hand moves in circle, and your opponent's arm also rotates into the same direction to escape your wrist grab, if you suddenly rotate your hand into the opposite direction, your hand will meet his arm 1/2 way. In other words, if you can take advantage on your opponent's respond, your successful rate will be higher.