Defensive approach vs. offensive approach

[johnwang]

Some people like to train defensively. Others like to train offensively (such as myself). In the following 2 set of videos,

- 1 is using defensive approach.
- 2 is using offensive approach.

Which approach do you prefer and why? Would you like to share your opinion on this?

1. Defensive approach - Your opponent attacks you. You counter.





2. Offensive approach - You attack your opponent. Your opponent responds.

[twocircles13]

One of my teachers taught me. “You are never more vulnerable than when you attack.”

So, I love to be attacked, because it gives me more with which to work. However, that does not mean I don’t attack. I’d say I use more of a balanced approach, some of each. Both approaches have their merits and their pitfalls.

[marvin8]

Some people like to train defensively. Others like to train offensively (such as myself). In the following 2 set of videos,

- 1 is using defensive approach.
- 2 is using offensive approach...

Which approach do you prefer and why? Would you like to share your opinion on this?

2. Offensive approach - You attack your opponent. Your opponent responds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdLNyz5 ... e=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaskiH ... e=youtu.be

“Attacking your opponent” first can be illegal, take away your right to self-defense and bear legal consequences with charges of assault to homicide. There are other ways to train controlling your opponent without using the “offensive approach.”

NewsNation
May 8, 2023

It's been a week since Jordan Neely was placed in a fatal chokehold on a NYC subway train. Many on the far left are claiming this was racially motivated, putting pressure on the Manhattan DA to file charges. The Neely family’s lawyer Donte Mills joins NewsNation's Dan Abrams to shed some light on the case.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj9FkkBpQoU

WHAS11
May 6, 2023

A disturbing video captured on a New York City subway shows retired Marine Daniel Penny using a deadly chokehold on Jordan Neely, who was homeless.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6LgZTikg3U

[windwalker]

Some people like to train defensively. Others like to train offensively (such as myself). In the following 2 set of videos,

- 1 is using defensive approach.
- 2 is using offensive approach.

Which approach do you prefer and why? Would you like to share your opinion on this?

Niether

For those I work with the focus is on "joining" with the others intent or movement
Part of "sticking" one of the basic strategies of taiji...

Find it very difficult and working with people, trying to get past the dichotomy of offense, defense
In our practice its neither, or maybe both....

In usage it means one is inside the OODA loop...

[windwalker]

A disturbing video captured on a New York City subway shows retired Marine Daniel Penny using a deadly chokehold on Jordan Neely, who was homeless.

Wonder where are the disturbing videos of what the "homeless" dude did to others
Lots of documentation no videos

"karma" can be a bitch sometimes

[twocircles13]

Such extremes! If I attacked someone with atomic bombs, or any kind of explosives for that matter, that would be illegal too. I think @johnwang to looking at a more subtle differentiations of technique rather than gradations or legalities of violence. If you’d like to talk about that, please start a different thread. I’ll join the conversation.

Let’s take the scenarios back to the training level. Even a touch in push hands can technically be offensive or defensive. If one touches, waits, and just senses, that can be thought of as defensive. If one touches and probes the depths of the opponent’s structure, that invasion could be thought of as offensive.

This is a legitimate analysis of technique, but, I also agree with @windwalker, it is not always the best mental framework in which to learn martial techniques or skills.

[johnwang]

The discussion can be whether you

- wait for your opportunity, or
- create your opportunity.

Defensive approach.



Offensive approach.

[marvin8]

“Attacking your opponent” first can be illegal,

Not interest in any legal discussion.

The discussion can be whether you

- wait for your opportunity, or
- create your opportunity.

Defensive approach.

https://i.postimg.cc/43p6Bs5y/Chang-outer-hook.gif

Offensive approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qkg4rLm3Cc

In which context, self-defense or combat sport?

[johnwang]

In wrestling, are you willing to spend a lot of energy trying to create your opportunity?



Or you just want to save energy and wait for that opportunity?

[johnwang]

In which context, self-defense or combat sport?

This can be applied in self-defense too.

You attack me. I play 100% defense. After you have punched me over 20 times, I then jump back and attack you. The reason that I didn't counter your initial 20 punches because:

- I hope you can stop your punch so both of us can go home safely.
- By playing 100% defense, I can concentrate on my defense skill.
- I may fall into your trap and you may take advantage on my counter.
- ...

In other words, the fight starts when I attack you back, and not when you attack me the first time.

[marvin8]

Such extremes! If I attacked someone with atomic bombs, or any kind of explosives for that matter, that would be illegal too. I think @johnwang to looking at a more subtle differentiations of technique rather than gradations or legalities of violence. If you’d like to talk about that, please start a different thread. I’ll join the conversation.

No, it depends. If you choose "1. Your opponent attacks you. You counter [OP]," then it may be legal. If you choose "2. You attack your opponent. Your opponent responds [OP]," then it is illegal with potential legal consequences.

In which context, self-defense or combat sport?

This can be applied in self-defense too.

I will not be the aggressor in a self-defense situation.

You attack me. I play 100% defense. After you have punched me over 20 times, I then jump back and attack you. The reason that I didn't counter your initial 20 punches because:

- I hope you can stop your punch so both of us can go home safely.
- By playing 100% defense, I can concentrate on my defense skill.
- I may fall into your trap and you may take advantage on my counter.
- ...

In other words, the fight starts when I attack you back, and not when you attack me the first time.

I play both defense and offense harmonizing with the opponent. I use yin, ting, na, hua and fa (not limited to taiji), attacking while the opponent is double-weighted.

Excerpt from "Courtroom KO! Joe Schilling cleared by Florida court over bar brawl:"

Joe Schilling has been cleared of all legal liability related to a violent confrontation in a Florida bar in June 2021.

The incident saw an inebriated man, Justin Balboa, confront Schilling at B Square Burgers in Fort Lauderdale. After a brief back-and-forth, Balboa appeared to fake a punch at the former GLORY kickboxing and Bellator fighter. Schilling immediately let his hands go, knocking out Balboa...

Citing Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” laws, circuit court judge, Fabienne E. Fahnestock, wrote a filing that stated Schilling, “reasonably believed” Balboa, “posed a threat of great bodily harm to himself ... Schilling used only such force necessary to neutralize the threat, and is therefore entitled to immunity.”

Xaana BrozaK
Jun 30, 2021

Balboa then seemingly began to pantomime a strike, and before he could complete his motion, the well-trained Schilling reflexively landed a short right hook, followed by a left, which knocked out the abrasive Florida Man who works as a busboy at an Outback Steakhouse:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxqDbhWEtWI

[wiesiek]

hmm,
fight is dynamic beast,
you reacting as you been trained,
wasting energy to create opportunity is uneconomical where you are on line of fire ,
and if you for ex., starting with pushing someone back to get reversed reaction - yo`re the aggressor,
however such move works well during "exchange".
So,
my approach to the fight is neutral, its fits me well, `cause I`m kinda of "passive" in the nature.

[Quigga]

Take the opportunities you can get without risking anything yourself. Don't exhaust yourself too much

Hard to stay very passive when the other is very active and vice versa

Nice choke btw

And never underestimate someone, anyone. Else you may be blind and get bad surprise

[Quigga]

Also if I'm not attacked in the first place why even fight back

In the name of fun practice sure, otherwise not

Or just a duh moment by myself, if combat situation is already implied

[johnwang]

wasting energy to create opportunity is uneconomical ...

This is very true. The following clips show "fast hand wrestling". It takes a lot of energy to create the opportunity that you are looking for. Not too many SC guys use this strategy today.