Buddha's Warrior Attendant

[Appledog]

What is the purpose of the foot stomp in Chen style Tai Chi, and pounding the fist? This move also appears in some "Shaolin Temple" and Chang Quan styles. Where does it come from? As I can figure, stomping the weight is related to weight shift and creating a root. But the fist is a complete mystery to me.

As a side topic, why did Feng Zhi-Qiang add a vertical circle before pounding the fist? Thanks for any opinions.

[charles]

What is the purpose of the foot stomp in Chen style Tai Chi, and pounding the fist? This move also appears in some "Shaolin Temple" and Chang Quan styles. Where does it come from? As I can figure, stomping the weight is related to weight shift and creating a root. But the fist is a complete mystery to me.

As a side topic, why did Feng Zhi-Qiang add a vertical circle before pounding the fist? Thanks for any opinions.

"Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Pestle" has a very long list of potential applications from foot sweeps, knee strikes, throws, joint locks, eye strikes, elbow strikes and punches. Keep in mind that the "move" goes from the lowering of the hands at the beginning of the form to the stomp.

In general, the foot stomp can be used to stomp on the top of an opponent's foot or to slide down the front of an opponent's shin. Performed correctly, the weight is not transferred to the stomping foot. Zhu Tiancai described it as if one was testing the thickness of ice: one doesn't drop one's weight on the testing foot - if the ice was thin and broke, you'd fall through the ice. Hence, weight remains on the supporting, non-stomping foot. It has nothing to do with creating a "root".

There are a number of possible applications for the pounding fist. One is a joint lock another is to use the big knuckles of the fist to strike the back of an opponent's hand or fist. It can also be used as a backfist to the opponent's clavicle or forearm. The "supporting" other hand, in the case of a joint lock, lifts up under the opponent's elbow while the other hand twists the opponent's hand, bending his wrist. In the case of a strike to the back of the hand, the supporting hand sandwiches the opponent's hand, applying force from one side as the fist strikes with the other.


Modern performances of Feng's forms usually have very large ill-defined actions making it very difficult to relate movements to applications. Older performances of his forms typically had more obvious martial application. There are many possible applications of the actions in the sequence. Halfway through the sequence, the left hand "swats" forward, one steps forward with the right foot while the right fist comes upwards and forwards. The left hand can be used to parry an incoming strike, wrap around the opponent's upper arm trapping his arm while bending him forward: the right knee strikes the bending opponent in the face. Alternatively, the left hand fingers can swat at the opponent's eyes, at minimum forming a distraction.

As the right foot steps forward, the right fist, middle knuckles of the first two fingers, can be used to strike under the opponent's nose or can strike under the opponent's chin. That could be followed with an elbow strike to the opponent's chest using the outside of the forearm flat against the chest. That can be followed by drawing the large knuckles of the right fist down the opponent's sternum: it isn't a "finishing" move, but is an unpleasant distraction. That is followed by a backhand flick to the opponent's face/eyes with one's left hand, followed by the lifting of the right fist to strike either side of the opponents temples or ears. That is the "extra" vertical circle prior to the pounding fist. I don't know why he added it, but that is its potential use. In later years, he added circles to various places in his forms, including the first move, raising and lowering the hands. These tend to be more "qigong" related.

[twocircles13]

What is the purpose of the foot stomp in Chen style Tai Chi, and pounding the fist? This move also appears in some "Shaolin Temple" and Chang Quan styles. Where does it come from? As I can figure, stomping the weight is related to weight shift and creating a root. But the fist is a complete mystery to me.

As a side topic, why did Feng Zhi-Qiang add a vertical circle before pounding the fist? Thanks for any opinions.

To @Charles’ excellent and thorough answer, I’d to add two applications.

The Launch: During the opening movements, If you’ve grasped the opponent's right wrist with your right hand and control his right elbow with your left palm, during the step out of the left leg you jerk him open into a spear and during the step up, you launch him across the room. We used to practice to see how far and high we could get people in the air. The average was about 15 feet horizontal and maybe 20 inches vertical. I’ve heard of farther and higher. If it’s done correctly, the opponent lands off balance and “runs” backward trying to regain his balance.

Besides just fun, the exercise taught a lot about partner manipulation, balance, and power generation. You could use this in push hands. I am not sure you’d ever use this in a self-defense situation, it's not damaging enough.

Some tips: Your partner cannot cooperate. He has to fight you and supply his force to turn against him. When you step up, you need to think compressing into a ball while balancing the pole running through his arms to use his and generate your own power.

The Throw: There’s a really effective throw too, but it lands people on their heads. I executed it correctly just once. I thought I had killed my practice partner. Now, I just start the throw, pull back, and catch the person. I wrote the instructions out, but then realized I didn’t want the moral liability if someone actually used it and hurt somebody.

The English translation of this name is awful, but it beats Buddha’s Stamp, which was an early alternative. The lore behind the name is really interesting. I call this movement, Jingang pounds the pestle or leave it Chinese. Jingang Dao Dui. It’s not like it’s a complex name.

[everything]

15 feet

on a side note, is this actually possible? or just an exaggeration? or bad judge of distance? a top level standing long jump (you propelling yourself) would be shorter. I guess if you throw a tiny human, you can throw that person pretty far. but if the human is heavier than you, it doesn't seem possible to throw that human farther than you can jump.

here is a world record in throwing a human, but the thrower is much larger, and the thrown human seems small.


4 cheerleaders tossed one "flyer" cheerleader something like 18 feet high for a world record.

[wayne hansen]

Don’t worry about applications the answer is simpler than that

[windwalker]

What is the purpose of the foot stomp in Chen style Tai Chi, and pounding the fist? This move also appears in some "Shaolin Temple" and Chang Quan styles. Where does it come from? As I can figure, stomping the weight is related to weight shift and creating a root. But the fist is a complete mystery to me.

As a side topic, why did Feng Zhi-Qiang add a vertical circle before pounding the fist? Thanks for any opinions.

To @Charles’ excellent and thorough answer, I’d to add two applications.

The Launch: During the opening movements, If you’ve grasped the opponent's right wrist with your right hand and control his right elbow with your left palm, during the step out of the left leg you jerk him open into a spear and during the step up, you launch him across the room. We used to practice to see how far and high we could get people in the air. The average was about 15 feet horizontal and maybe 20 inches vertical. I’ve heard of farther and higher. If it’s done correctly, the opponent lands off balance and “runs” backward trying to regain his balance.

Besides just fun, the exercise taught a lot about partner manipulation, balance, and power generation. You could use this in push hands. I am not sure you’d ever use this in a self-defense situation, it's not damaging enough.

Some tips: Your partner cannot cooperate. He has to fight you and supply his force to turn against him. When you step up, you need to think compressing into a ball while balancing the pole running through his arms to use his and generate your own power.

The Throw: There’s a really effective throw too, but it lands people on their heads. I executed it correctly just once. I thought I had killed my practice partner. Now, I just start the throw, pull back, and catch the person. I wrote the instructions out, but then realized I didn’t want the moral liability if someone actually used it and hurt somebody.

The English translation of this name is awful, but it beats Buddha’s Stamp, which was an early alternative. The lore behind the name is really interesting. I call this movement, Jingang pounds the pestle or leave it Chinese. Jingang Dao Dui. It’s not like it’s a complex name.

Are there videos of either your self or others showing what was just described ?

[johnwang]

pounding the fist?

When I was 11, my brother-in-law taught me a Bagu Quan form (not Bagua palm form). The 1st move of that form is to use right fist to punch on left palm before pull the bow to shot tiger. I believe many CMA system use this to train "fist contact" when training partner is not available.

[Appledog]

...you jerk him open into a spear...

Look to the east and attack to the west, hmm? So this is the function of "that circle" before the step out? Even (assuming) knowing what you are talking about I have trouble seeing it and would probably never think to do this. Does it look like the piston of a steam engine?

The Throw: There’s a really effective throw too, but it lands people on their heads. I executed it correctly just once. I thought I had killed my practice partner. Now, I just start the throw, pull back, and catch the person. I wrote the instructions out, but then realized I didn’t want the moral liability if someone actually used it and hurt somebody.

If you want to DM me I will indemnify you Well, in situations like this, my rule is that if I can find it on youtube I just post a link. Or I can say the name of the move such as "emptying the sack" or "tying the horse". A lot of moves have special names such as "ghost pushes millstone (or was that gravestone?)". In any case I definitely don't know a lot about applications. I don't think I am really really to learn too many of them. I just don't practice enough to be at that stage, I guess. Oddly, sometimes, things just "work out" and an application "magically appears" in push hands. But I do not push hands nearly enough to make this a habit. And learning applications this way is slow, and makes me feel disconnected because I do not know their name.

[Bob]

At 1:47 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6ju117cfMw

adam hsu chen tai chi chuan usage part I



Previously posted:
https://youtube.com/shorts/8lKURPuGnGA?feature=share

[Appledog]

adam hsu chen tai chi chuan usage part I

I like Adam Hsu. He teaches a kind of push hands where the goal is to cross one arm overtop of the other, the application of which he shows in the above video. However, I've never seen this kind of push hands in my end of the woods. I have seen it frequently in Taiwan (which could be a testament to Adam Hsu's teaching career). Does anyone know more about this cross-over application and why it seems to be so partisan? Thanks

[Bob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE3M2DH_Vmc

杜毓澤係陳氏太極拳「金剛搗錐」Du’s Chen Style Taijiquan “Jing Gang Dao Dui”

[windwalker]

adam hsu chen tai chi chuan usage part I

I like Adam Hsu. He teaches a kind of push hands where the goal is to cross one arm overtop of the other, the application of which he shows in the above video. However, I've never seen this kind of push hands in my end of the woods. I have seen it frequently in Taiwan (which could be a testament to Adam Hsu's teaching career). Does anyone know more about this cross-over application and why it seems to be so partisan? Thanks

Have met Adam in the US, nice guy...

Would suggest you might want to get out more. In Taiwan, and China, the practice is quite common in free hand pushing,,,one could say its a tactic used by those in a more competitive format.

Doesn't tend to work to well outside of it for many reasons.

Don't know about partisan, there is "Apparent Close (Rúfēng shìbì, 如封似闭), Withdraw and Push, as if Closing a Door".

same idea in use...although in this app, I'd say the chances of using it outside of the PH format are much better.

[twocircles13]

15 feet

on a side note, is this actually possible? or just an exaggeration? or bad judge of distance? a top level standing long jump (you propelling yourself) would be shorter. I guess if you throw a tiny human, you can throw that person pretty far. but if the human is heavier than you, it doesn't seem possible to throw that human farther than you can jump.

here is a world record in throwing a human, but the thrower is much larger, and the thrown human seems small.


4 cheerleaders tossed one "flyer" cheerleader something like 18 feet high for a world record.

I was expecting to come back to this thread this morning and post about the name and the lore behind it. Instead, I’m going talk about this.

First, mentally reviewing for the sake of accuracy, the room was 30 feet wide and had old commercial carpet glued to the floor, so we could see the seams. We were using those as guidelines. I was thinking that the carpet was 15’ wide, but it was probably 12’. We did measure it. This was our minimum distance to count "the launch”. We had spotters to make sure a foot didn’t go over the launch line, and we had spotters watching the touchdown point. One of the better launches was a foot inside the launch line and two feet over the landing line. So, I find that I may have exaggerated somewhat the average “counted" launch was probably about 13 feet and the max we got that night was probably in the 15 to 16 foot range.

Second, this should not be surprising, but most people do not understand how Taijiquan works biomechanically. @Everything’s video is a great example. It shows large strong guys throwing humans as dead weight. In taijiquan, we never work with dead weight. Remember the never use force against force injunction? Well, never use force against dead weight.

Hong Junsheng in his seventies or eighties tried to teach this to his students. He said, “See that rock over there?” Pointing to a random rock. “I cannot lift it. Please explain to me how I throw you, who weigh many times the weight of the rock, around like rag dolls. Where does the power to throw you come from?” His overly enthusiastic students took the rock and weighed it. It was 20 or 25 kg. He left the question hanging.

Let me put it another way. If the force to throw an opponent does not come from the eighty-year-old practitioner who doesn’t have it, where does it come from? The answer should be obvious, the opponent. This is why I said the opponent has to come with full power. This gets hard knowing you are about to be launched backward through the air. It’s also why I am not very worried pushing hands with a frail old lady with brittle bones. She is not going to generate enough power to more than make her take a step back. Whereas, a stripling in their prime can create some really spectacular, sometimes unexpected results.

What happens is that the opponent attacks, and I collapse his structure. He essentially jerks or jumps to save himself. I direct the force of his jump, and I might add a little follow through. The follow through feel like underhand tossing a 30 or 40 lbs bag of dog food, or something like that. Not too heavy, but you feel a mass, so you are just going with the momentum.

We did video that at one point, but it has been nearly 20 years, so I don’t know who has it if it still exists. There are videos of my teacher teaching at least part of both of these applications. I did not find them. If I do, I will post them later. I found these videos on Jingang Dao Dui.

This first is Shifu Chen Zhonghua teaching a workshop open to the public in a karate studio. The applications tend to be from the Second Road, showing speed and power, but frankly, if you just copied what he appears to be doing, it would be difficult to pull some of the later applications he only demonstrates.



This second video is my senior brother, Ronnie Yee, teaching a seminar to his students. The applications are from the First Road, subtle and precise. Without the skills developed on the First Road, Taijiquan’s Second Road is pretty useless. Ronnie’s teaching method is straightforward and crystal clear. At 7:18, he shows the action that would become the launch with some additions, if he were teaching that.



There are also some points in here that emphasize why jibengong and circle practice are so important, another topic.

[everything]

ah great descriptions on this side question, thanks. good point about the dead weight vs. "live". I guess it makes sense if you make someone kind of step then they want to go the other way so they sort of inadvertently "jump" and get a "push", then they can "jump" farther than they can do a standing jump on their own. I've been pushed gently "internally" and there was no "jump" - I just "had to" go backward for seemingly no reason and I couldn't not go, and I've been pushed "externally" that was supposedly "internally" and it did sort of feel like my first description, but I didn't feel like I helped to "jump" in getting pushed. hard to say if I would've gone that far (but it certainly felt like I would've gone 5-10 feet easily).

ok sorry about the sidebar ... back on topic ...

[windwalker]

Thought some might find this demo of the movement interesting



Master Fang Yan