Starting Push Hands Training

[origami_itto]

I find I can get things in standing some, then a little less in movement, then even less in partner work, but getting better. I'm excited about the atomic approach I'm developing, I haven't seen anybody use this method for Taijiquan but it allows me to zero in the focus on exactly which area is giving me trouble.

[Giles]

@origami
What's your atomic approach? Uranium nuggets with your cornflakes every morning?
Joking apart, I probably missed something you wrote earlier - I've been very busy and just an occasional reader in recent weeks - so what do you mean by this? With reference to 'standing - moving - partner' ?

[origami_itto]

@origami
What's your atomic approach? Uranium nuggets with your cornflakes every morning?
Joking apart, I probably missed something you wrote earlier - I've been very busy and just an occasional reader in recent weeks - so what do you mean by this? With reference to 'standing - moving - partner' ?

I was referring to what you had just said, basically.

A fairly typical dialogue:
Student: "When I practice by myself I think I'm already quite relaxed in body and in mind. But in push hands I find I'm actually really tense and stiff - in body and in mind. And I can't do the techniques, or at least not very well. Am I fooling myself, am I doing things wrong?"
Trainer: "You're not really doing things wrong, you're doing fine. Up to a point. It's just that push hands gives you feedback on the next level, about your body structure/connections and about your mind. It's a reality check. [A very mild one of course, it's not free applications or sparring, but it's a start.] So keep training both solo and with partners, and let your experiences and sensations in push hands (the moments where things go better) flow back into your solo work. Essentially it's all the same."

It's more about the mental aspect. Both in how still my mind is and how much my mind is in my body, like how saturated with awareness I am and how many pieces and parts I can think about, move, or be correct at once. More accurately, how much is taking care of itself without my intervention freeing up my conscious mind to focus on new things.

So in standing practice Zhaung Zhang and "standing like a mountain", I'm able to get things aligned and seated and released and relaxed properly, but when I start moving, well now I'm thinking about my motion, and all of the parts I worked so hard to get into place are moving and the tension is changing, so it's a bigger challenge to keep things correct, then when you add another person actively trying to compromise my integrity...

Basically I have less compute power to maintain correct posture the more challenging and demanding the situation I am in.

The atomic approach is breaking down areas of focus into legs and hips, tailbone and headtop/spine, arms and shoulders. (It's a reference to the book "atomic habits")

So we start from standing, then stationary arm movements, then stationary arm and waist movements, then stepping movements. Same set of movements, just progressively adding complexity.

So many teachers seem to want to teach choreography and then from that mimicry I guess the idea is they discover taijiquan in all the confusion. There is just too much to focus on when you start teaching somebody form. If they don't have the foundation then you're just teaching them to develop bad habits by compensating for their lack of strength or coordination.

Hence the common refrain of it takes 20 years to get started. I think we can cut that time down

[windwalker]

Seldom do I work with beginners in taiji.. most having 10yr + in practice...meeting and staying to train...
finding something they may not have gotten from
their own practice...

Push hands practice, often the most difficult aspect due to the fact that they "push"
A good practice depending on focus might be to understand how not to push

Normally done by putting people in positions where they can not

a lot depends on the teaches level and type of skill

[Doc Stier]

I find I can get things in standing some, then a little less in movement, then even less in partner work, but getting better. I'm excited about the atomic approach I'm developing, I haven't seen anybody use this method for Taijiquan but it allows me to zero in the focus on exactly which area is giving me trouble.

That's what a good teacher does for their students. That's what my Sifu did for me. He mercilessly and relentlessly zeroed his focus in on what was giving me trouble, or on what I was doing incorrectly and inefficiently.

His expert observations and feedback were always right on target, so I never felt any need to independently figure it all out mentally. Instead, I simply followed the instructions and allowed the process to gradually unfold in my body through daily training as directed. It worked for me, but ymmv.

[origami_itto]

I find I can get things in standing some, then a little less in movement, then even less in partner work, but getting better. I'm excited about the atomic approach I'm developing, I haven't seen anybody use this method for Taijiquan but it allows me to zero in the focus on exactly which area is giving me trouble.

That's what a good teacher does for their students. That's what my Sifu did for me. He mercilessly and relentlessly zeroed his focus in on what was giving me trouble, or on what I was doing incorrectly and inefficiently.

His expert observations and feedback were always right on target, so I never felt any need to independently figure it all out mentally, but instead I simply followed the instructions and allowed the process to gradually unfold in my body through daily training. ymmv.

Yeah I have had limited access to quality in-person instruction for quite some time, but still get what I can when I can and do what I can with what I got. No regrets. It's good fun, good exercise, good work. YMMV.

[BruceP]

Bruce, you can teach your students how you like, but you don't get to tell others how to teach. What's with the controlling attitude?

Says the guy with the passively preachy blog...which he uses to argue with people so they can't argue back. Controlly much

Well, as Charles has observed, 6H is as meaningless as "internal" these days. So, we have to establish that we're talking about the same thing - what exactly are you talking about when you say 6H?

To me they are general principles of movement so there is no difference to applying 6H to Cloud Hands as there is to anything else - the fact you think there is means I suspect we're not talking about the same thing

When was the beginning of "these days" ? You wrote that 6 Harmonies are "standard practice", and now they're meaningless? Aw jeeze, eh...that's convenient

It shouldn't matter what my views are. I was asking how your standard practice of Six Harmonies is applied to the Cloud Hands sequence. But you have no answer.

[BruceP]

As for "impart[ing] the indelible sensation of the 'primordial stirrings' of their dantien" on beginning students, my experience has been as others have stated that most beginners have more than enough difficulty copying gross choreography of simply actions. In my experience, it is simply not possible for the vast majority of beginners

Thanks, Charles

I've never been a teacher and have never had students. Only training partners. Don't even let them call me coach.

I never 'talk about stuff'. Never use terminology or jargon. I avoid putting anything in context or assigning a reason or purpose to the work. I'm even loath to refer to the exercises by their names that they might suggest some sort of context with the movement. No expectations, no preconceived notions and none of us have ever tried to define their experience, because it's different for everyone. Neutrality Principle...

After doing the NTE, we do the qigong.

I like to start everyone off with corn-grinding because due to the simplicity of its movement it's so consistant from person to person in its proprioceptive imprinting,
.

Stand naturally, feet at shoulder width, stand up straight and bend the knees slightly. Shoulders and hips are plumb and square. Slight pelvic tilt if that's more comfortable - everybody plays with it and decides for themselves. Relax. Doesn't matter how high the hands are held as long as they stay at that height (whatever's natural) and hold the elbows a little away from the body. Turn the torso (shoulders and hips) with the hands as they make horizontal circular movements - keep the hands inside the shoulders - kinda like wax-on. It's easy...


How hard do you think it is for a first-timer to wax-on while following those postural guidelines?


But,....the 'choreography' (exercise) doesn't matter because it's absent in the qigong. There is only the intention and light bits of pressure here and there from time to time for fun.


The NTE address (knee rotations not included) most of the natural, 'universal' movement patterns that humans apply to various activities. If you can brush the breadcrumbs off the counter, you can grind corn. The NTQ strengthens the mind/body connections that are applied to, say, brushing breadcrumbs off the counter. Too hard for beginners to follow, I know, but the fact that your are doubtful that primordial stirrings are within the reach of a first-timer, I have my answer.


Thanks again

[origami_itto]

How hard do you think it is for a first-timer to wax-on while following those postural guidelines?

That's why as charles mentioned, we talk about hips and shoulders, feet and toes, and you hammer those every session. I start my students laying the tracks to start breathing from their heels on the first day but they don't know what that is. I'm guiding their awareness through the body in class so they can be more aware on their own, but you don't have to get into yi, qi, jin, etc because it isn't helpful at that point. It can help sell a little exoticness I guess, but I prefer "do this" and they get a feeling or result from the practice that they can feel and understand, and that leads to the next step of the process. You exercise their yi, you don't talk about it. May as well spend ten minutes describing the theory of a push up.

Only mention and explain what needs to be done to accomplish the exercise, period. Save the theory for homework.

[Giles]

@ origami re: atomic
Okay, I understand! As regards "all the different things": it's really important to move beyond the feeling of 'trying to juggle a multitude of balls at the same time' - this way lies madness (or at least frustration). Simplify your life! The Tai Chi Classics say something like:
The changes/manifestations are ten thousand
But the underlying principle is just
One

Sure, first of all one has to bring the body into line. Literally. Good skeletal alignment is really important, otherwise it's like trying to ride a bike with handlebars off-center one way, the saddle off-center the other way and warped wheels.
Then an increasing level of functional relaxation (= removal of parasitic muscle tone), otherwise it's like trying to ride a bike with wheels that just won't turn, or only with great effort.
But once you've got a workable level of efficiency in these areas (the fine tuning continues for ever), then it's NOT complicated. It's simple. That doesn't mean it's easy, but it is actually simple - in the way that riding a bike is simple. Or insanely complex, but it soon FEELS easy, it's no longer feels like keeping track of 10 important things at the same time.
So what is the "simple" thing we need to do? Sink/relax down and extend/float upwards, increasingly as switching on just one state, not even as two opposing actions. As a result the joints open and become free, the body starts to be as one, one part moves and (on the inside) all parts move. Beneficial and pleasant heaviness and lightness in synergy. When standing, when doing a form, when doing push hands, when moving freely in applications, sparring or (very important!) on the dancefloor.
When incoming forces act on the body, or even approach the body, the body (and/or deeper parts of the mind) will start to respond with an ease and precision that we'll never achieve if the mind kinda pulls out its pocket calculator each time and tries to solve the new problem. Then we're always stuck behind the curve.
So, er, be water, my friend.

[origami_itto]

[quote="Giles"]@ origami re: atomic
Okay, I understand! As regards "all the different things": it's really important to move beyond the feeling of 'trying to juggle a multitude of balls at the same time' - this way lies madness[ote]
That's the idea of the training, right? If I have to think about what is correct in each part I don't have enough brainpower or awareness to cover everything. It has to be set in the body and automatic.
So it's get it in stillness first, then in movement, then against active opposition. We increase the variables gradually as each set is mastered instead of piling it all on at once.

But in layers, and "active" levels. We bake in one layer of conditioning, find corrections and go back and bake those in, etm. Under stress we regress to a less refined level.

I'm not arguing in any way, I'm just saying, this is the way to approach training. Isolate then integrate. If you tell somebody to just start doing form they aren't doing shit to do with taijiquan.

[charles]

Neutrality Principle...

It seems we largely agree on that approach.

I like to start everyone off with corn-grinding because due to the simplicity of its movement it's so consistant from person to person in its proprioceptive imprinting,
.

Stand naturally, feet at shoulder width, stand up straight and bend the knees slightly. Shoulders and hips are plumb and square. Slight pelvic tilt if that's more comfortable - everybody plays with it and decides for themselves. Relax. Doesn't matter how high the hands are held as long as they stay at that height (whatever's natural) and hold the elbows a little away from the body. Turn the torso (shoulders and hips) with the hands as they make horizontal circular movements - keep the hands inside the shoulders - kinda like wax-on. It's easy...


How hard do you think it is for a first-timer to wax-on while following those postural guidelines?

In my experience, pretty difficult for many. See below...

The NTE address (knee rotations not included) most of the natural, 'universal' movement patterns that humans apply to various activities. If you can brush the breadcrumbs off the counter, you can grind corn. The NTQ strengthens the mind/body connections that are applied to, say, brushing breadcrumbs off the counter. Too hard for beginners to follow, I know, but the fact that your are doubtful that primordial stirrings are within the reach of a first-timer, I have my answer.

It sounds like our brushing breadcrumbs experiences are different. My observation is that many people, when asked to brush breadcrumbs from the counter, will do so by moving their arms from the elbows and/or shoulder joints in isolation of the rest of the body, usually past the shoulders. When people are asked to do corn grinding-like actions, they either do the same or, when told to turn their waist - not just use their arms - they then twist at the ankles, knees and/or hips. Relatively few beginners have any awareness or control of "the waist": forget "the dan tian".

Brushing crumbs from the counter by sweeping the arms in isolation of the rest of the body contradicts one of the basic guiding principles of Taijiquan practice: whole-body motion, however one chooses to define and implement it. Ditto for twisting at the ankles and/or knees. As I've been taught and experienced, Taijiquan is largely about a specific way of using the body. Sure, different styles use the body in differing ways. If that way of using the body was "inherent" and "natural", however one chooses to define those, to everyone, one would not need much training to be good at the basics of Taijiquan.

I don't see using one's arms in isolation to brush breadcrumbs off the counter as being the "primordial" version of anything related to Taijiquan. Ditto for corn grinding if one twists ankles, knees and/or hips to move the arms. To be clear, I have no issue with brushing crumbs or grinding corn as training exercises. However, if done outside of the context of Taijiquan body methods, I don't see how they are beneficial to the study or practice of Taijiquan.

[charles]

That's why as charles mentioned, we talk about hips and shoulders, feet and toes, and you hammer those every session.

Just to be clear, I made no mention of feet and toes or to "hammer those every session".

I start my students laying the tracks to start breathing from their heels on the first day but they don't know what that is.

I admit I don't know what "breathing from their heels" is. Why does one want to achieve that and what relevance does that have to Taijiquan skills?

[origami_itto]

That's why as charles mentioned, we talk about hips and shoulders, feet and toes, and you hammer those every session.

Just to be clear, I made no mention of feet and toes or to "hammer those every session".

You're absolutely right, my mistake.

I start my students laying the tracks to start breathing from their heels on the first day but they don't know what that is.

I admit I don't know what "breathing from their heels" is. Why does one want to achieve that and what relevance does that have to Taijiquan skills?

Nothing worth worrying about.

[Bao]

I admit I don't know what "breathing from their heels" is. Why does one want to achieve that and what relevance does that have to Taijiquan skills?

It's old Daoist thought and practice.

In the Daodejing it is said "The sage breathes from his heels." In the Zhuangzi “breathing through the heels,” is mentioned and in other taoist texts you can find references to that "zhenren" or the immortal breath from his heels.

Sometimes is mentioned together with practices meant to straightening the spine. So it means deep, whole body breathing and that there is nothing in the body that restricts it.

It sounds like Tai Chi to me, but if you are not interested... YMMV I guess...

(Sometimes I wonder why ppl are not interested to look beyond literary interpretations of things...)