Starting Push Hands Training

[BruceP]

The thread title is "starting push hands", but it soon turned into advanced theory and philosophy. Maybe not what you would teach beginners. Unless your goal is to keep them as perpetual beginners.

Beginning push hands is to learn how to adapt to physical movement, and then to learn how to capture the opponent's center and learn how to feel the opponent's balance to cut his root. And at the same time, you need to learn how to keep relaxed, balanced and your mind calm while someone is trying to push and drag you, get you out of balance. For beginners, all talk about consciousness, yi, jin etc etc is just confusing, redundant and make them focus on the wrong things.

So far, I believe from everything I have watched on Google, I have only heard teachers speaking a lot theory and philosophy, and not found one single teacher who really taught something practically valuable for a beginner to really learn and understand push hands. Well... maybe Chen Zhonghua has some videos. Maybe there is someone else, but I can't really think of anyone else.

go0g!3...pfft

Six Harmonies - 'consciousness', yi, jin etc etc - are the basics of tjq. If a teacher can't show someone how to physically experience and explore 6 Harmonies in solo training on their first day,...?

WW has been writing about these ideas as long as the intertrons has been hosting IMA forums - in the old chatrooms, and one long since defunct kung fu forum in particular - before the turn of the century. Shared some videos privately of his master playing the real while be tested by some genuinely 'skeptical' kung fu men way back then as well.

Some haven't changed their tune one note in those 20+ years because the song remains the same.

[everything]

sure, there is beginner (like kids wrestling) ... which is why I say, like with all sports/arts, start immediately as young as possible. but then there is "beginner", which gets more interesting but a bit tough/confusing/easily derailed/rorschach test-y

[wayne hansen]

People my age all grew up wrestling
I had two cousins who became Australian champions
I was taught judo break falls and grappling at 8 by a mate who became an international gymnastics coach
He tells me he has super 8 film of those sessions
I would love to see WW ,s film of his teachers converting the non belevers

[robert]

The thread title is "starting push hands", but it soon turned into advanced theory and philosophy. Maybe not what you would teach beginners. Unless your goal is to keep them as perpetual beginners.

Beginning push hands is to learn how to adapt to physical movement, and then to learn how to capture the opponent's center and learn how to feel the opponent's balance to cut his root. And at the same time, you need to learn how to keep relaxed, balanced and your mind calm while someone is trying to push and drag you, get you out of balance. For beginners, all talk about consciousness, yi, jin etc etc is just confusing, redundant and make them focus on the wrong things.

So far, I believe from everything I have watched on Google, I have only heard teachers speaking a lot theory and philosophy, and not found one single teacher who really taught something practically valuable for a beginner to really learn and understand push hands. Well... maybe Chen Zhonghua has some videos. Maybe there is someone else, but I can't really think of anyone else.

I think this starts to get to the core of it. Do you start off wrestling or doing push hands? If you're learning push hands isn't pengjin the first jin you need? How do you learn pengjin without two person work? It seems like there's a chicken and egg problem. You do a little push hands to get some idea of what pengjin is and then you go back and do a lot of form work/solo training. Try push hands again and how's that pengjin? I think push hands informs solo training. Solo training improves one's jin. How do you train jin without awareness? Eventually you develop enough pengjin you can push hands and then you start to understand jin. My opinion, but there are many different ways to train. If you look at push hands competitions wrestling seems very popular.

[windwalker]

People my age all grew up wrestling
I had two cousins who became Australian champions
I was taught judo break falls and grappling at 8 by a mate who became an international gymnastics coach
He tells me he has super 8 film of those sessions
I would love to see WW ,s film of his teachers converting the non belevers

Why ?

More so from someone who doesn’t seem to post any clips of their recent work, while making pronouncements on
others work.


I’ve had some form RSF visit me and my teacher in the past over the years.
In all cases I asked them to keep the visits off the net not to use to prove or disprove.

As my teacher preferred to remain private.

No longer really necessary should one want to share their thoughts.


Since his death I’ve been more open about him and some of the work he focused on.

Posting here to share a view point with other practitioners of taiji

[windwalker]

@ Robert

Would be interesting to read your thoughts on “peng Jin”

[Bao]

go0g!3...pfft Six Harmonies - 'consciousness', yi, jin etc etc - are the basics of tjq. If a teacher can't show someone how to physically experience and explore 6 Harmonies in solo training on their first day,...?

How would you teach yi, jin and qi to a beginner in a practical, useful manner? Give me a couple of examples.

How would "qi" or "jin" be useful for someone who hardly can move balanced and coordinated?

6 Harmonies: How would a beginner that haven't developed any qi or yi have use of "harmonizing yi with qi"?

WW has been writing about these ideas as long as the intertrons has been hosting IMA forums - in the old chatrooms, and one long since defunct kung fu forum in particular - before the turn of the century. Shared some videos privately of his master playing the real while be tested by some genuinely 'skeptical' kung fu men way back then as well.

I know very well what WW has written through the years. Give me a couple of examples of practical advice WW has written about, specifically meant for a beginner.

[Bao]

I think this starts to get to the core of it. Do you start off wrestling or doing push hands? If you're learning push hands isn't pengjin the first jin you need? How do you learn pengjin without two person work? It seems like there's a chicken and egg problem. You do a little push hands to get some idea of what pengjin is and then you go back and do a lot of form work/solo training. Try push hands again and how's that pengjin? I think push hands informs solo training. Solo training improves one's jin. How do you train jin without awareness? Eventually you develop enough pengjin you can push hands and then you start to understand jin. My opinion, but there are many different ways to train. If you look at push hands competitions wrestling seems very popular.

Good thoughts.

IMO, what you teach a beginner is balance, alignment, whole body movement. It takes time. Simple partner exercises are also important.

And, IMHO, you need to understand alignment and balance before pengjin. Pengjin needs a relaxed and balanced body. Or rather it is a consequence of certain conditions. In my experience, forcing peng will make students stiff and "float".

BTW, ppl wrestle in push hands because they want to win, not because they would be interested in any deeper aspects of tai chi.

[robert]

IMO, what you teach a beginner is balance, alignment, whole body movement. It takes time. Simple partner exercises are also important.

And, IMHO, you need to understand alignment and balance before pengjin. Pengjin needs a relaxed and balanced body. Or rather it is a consequence of certain conditions. In my experience, forcing peng will make students stiff and "float".

Yes, there are many different ways to teach, so it's difficult to discuss. Are simple partner exercises push hands? I trained a modern approach using simple partner exercises. I wouldn't call them push hands. They helped train balance, alignment, and connection, but I would also say in neijia that is training jin. Balance and alignment are import in wrestling so there is a fine line in training. If you add in connection, and have alignment and balance trained in relation to connection isn't that jin training? From my experience you can't force peng. In the Chinese term fang song, fang means letting go or releasing. How can peng be stiff? If a person is stiff they aren't peng.

[robert]

@ Robert

Would be interesting to read your thoughts on “peng Jin”

Why? it's a Chinese term that seems to be understood in the Chinese MAs community. If we were discussing force as it's used in physics, I would look up the definition in a physics book. To learn pengjin I train with IMAs from China.

[wayne hansen]

The only reason I asked if the clips were around was because they were mentioned here
Thus giving your statements validity
If someone mentions your teacher converting antagonists it would be nice to see
No need to see me doing new stuff just know I am even older and uglier than those things previously posted and have improved a little

[windwalker]

@ Robert

Would be interesting to read your thoughts on “peng Jin”

Why? it's a Chinese term that seems to be understood in the Chinese MAs community. If we were discussing force as it's used in physics, I would look up the definition in a physics book. To learn pengjin I train with IMAs from China.

There are many different understandings of the term as mentioned here...

"I train with IMAs from China"

As I "in China". always good to learn from the source..

not a problem

Just wondered what "your" view point of it was,,,,

let me leave you with this

Prior to meeting Master Wang Yongquan, Master Wei was a contented master of Chen style Tai Chi Chuan.
A friend told him of an old master with superlative skill that he must meet.

Master Wei famously said that there was nothing more for him to learn in Tai Chi Chuan since he had attained a high level of skill.

The friend persisted. Some two years later a reluctant Master Wei stood before Master Wang who was sitting down in a rattan chair. Master Wei was skeptical and it must have shown on his face. Master Wang waved Master Wei over. Leaning back in his chair Master Wang asked Wei to extend his middle fingers. Master Wang grasped both of Wei's middle fingers by the tips, showed Wei that it would not be easy if not impossible to fajing him in this manner.

In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face. He had not expected this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what Master Wang just demonstrated on him.

So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang.

[windwalker]

Some mentioned beginning training

Adam. has a good take on this...

in Taijiquan some people love fixed pattern push hands, some people hate it. Are they important? Do they train bad habits?
Why do it at all? Is it competition? Does it matter if my goal is to compete in competitive push hands?

During the one month intensive training camp held in Phuket, Thailand, sifu Adam Mizner explains why and how fixed pattern push hands come into the training process.
He also points out key parts of the body that need to be released or relaxed in order to use the art of Taijiquan and how fixed Push hands pattern partner work helps.

[Doc Stier]

Traditional push hands practice with partners of varying skill levels is a valuable feedback method in assessing one's current understanding of core concepts, foundation principles, and the basic body methods based on same. This can only occur, however, when we focus on our own ability to properly manifest these things physically, while also maintaining a calm, non-competitive state of mind.

When push hands practice is focused on ego driven priorities such as winning or losing, and other personal value judgements in comparison to our partners, the correct expression of foundation principles and the proper performance of basic body methods is often abandoned in part or in whole for the sake of competitive victory and ego gratification.

Such individuals may be able to defeat others with similar or lesser skills, but typically never progress beyond this level. Don't be that guy!

[dragonprawn]

Finally around a month ago our school expanded our post pandemic offerings to include a push hands class. I realized that while I still had my ph skills one thing I had forgotten about was how challenging it is to work with beginners. We require completion of the 37 form first. I have a hard time processing how you would go about training ph without some prerequisites. Another thing is that the more experienced students will naturally be paired very often with those who are less skilled, to teach them, etc. That is fine, but it should also be expected that the beginners continue to try to improve their competency in IMAs in all other aspects of their training. Put it this way, it is not so great to push with someone who doesn't practice regular nei kung, let alone the form. So beginners can help the more experienced this way and everybody wins (or at least invests in loss).