the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

BruceP wrote:
In contrast to consistent language (same old tune), compare what's quoted below from earlier in this thread with the 3rd paragraph in what's linked below that:
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Bao wrote:Showing and teaching 6 harmonies is easy. But only the 3 external harmonies are useful for beginners. If you haven't even developed qi, yi or jin, you CAN NOT harmonize them. So beginners cannot understand the 6H.

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/

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Thank you for the link and the attention... I guess...

Bao wrote:Showing and teaching 6 harmonies is easy. But only the 3 external harmonies are useful for beginners. If you haven't even developed qi, yi or jin, you CAN NOT harmonize them. So beginners cannot understand the 6H.

Among 3 harmonies, one should start from the 1st harmony that hand coordinate with foot. The beginners need to have a clear hand and foot move at the same time drill to coordinate with. If the beginner training is like the WC forms that stand on one spot without moving much feet, they will never be able to reach even to the 1st coordination.

johnwang wrote:

Bao wrote:Showing and teaching 6 harmonies is easy. But only the 3 external harmonies are useful for beginners.
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Among 3 harmonies, one should start from the 1st harmony that hand coordinate with foot. The beginners need to have a clear hand and foot move at the same time drill to coordinate with. If the beginner training is like the WC forms that stand on one spot without moving much feet, they will never be able to reach even to the 1st coordination.

Absolutely, agree 100%. I always teach that what you do with your feet, you should feel in your hands. As if you push forward with your palm, you should be able to feel there's a direct connection between the foot and palm.

But remember that "6 harmonies" is originally a Xingyi thing. I don't think it covers Tai Chi coordination. The problem is that the centerline isn't included in this theory. But in Tai Chi, you move and initiate all of the movements from the center of the body.

So in Taijiquan, as a beginner, you should learn to initiate the movements, and move, from the center of the body and also from the feet. What is important is really to develop the internal awareness, that you learn how to feel what you do. If you don't, everything called "6 harmonies" becomes something external and shallow. Probably just something intellectual.

Bao wrote:
But remember that "6 harmonies" is originally a Xingyi thing. I don't think it covers Tai Chi coordination. The problem is that the centerline isn't included in this theory. But in Tai Chi, you move and initiate all of the movements from the center of the body.

So in Taijiquan, as a beginner, you should learn to initiate the movements, and move, from the center of the body and also from the feet. What is important is really to develop the internal awareness, that you learn how to feel what you do. If you don't, everything called "6 harmonies" becomes something external and shallow. Probably just something intellectual.

The three internal harmonies are definitely always directly relevant. The external harmonies are a bit different.

Adam Mizner teaches them a certain way, more about releasing than moving. Alex Dong teaches that there are more, not really referencing the six harmonies but he outlines the various coordinations (hand to foot, hand to hand, foot to foot, etc) in his books.

I believe it's more about peng and being strong in "8 directions" than 6 harmonies.

origami_itto wrote:The three internal harmonies are definitely always directly relevant.

Agree that they are "always directly relevant". If you can understand them or not is a different thing.

The external harmonies are a bit different.

Of course, they are external.

Adam Mizner teaches them a certain way, more about releasing than moving.

Interesting... How does he teach to "release" mind and yi? And how would that "connect" or "harmonize" them?

Alex Dong teaches that there are more, not really referencing the six harmonies but he outlines the various coordinations (hand to foot, hand to hand, foot to foot, etc) in his books.

What is "more"?

I believe it's more about peng and being strong in "8 directions" than 6 harmonies.

Well, traditionally speaking, in Chinese tradition, "6 harmonies" actually refers to "directions".
If you "release" or open all the joints in all directions, this is expansion, which most people refer to as "peng".
"Directions" is interesting from a tai chi perspective as it assumes there must be a center, or Zhong ding. However, "8 directions" is redundant as we already have "the five directions", which is in fact 8 or 10 directions, or how you want to interpret it.

However, I don't agree that the 6H would (mainly) be about peng, and I am not sure I really believe in the idea of "being strong" in all directions, which seems more like an ideal (Unfortunately our structure and balance will always have gaps and weaknesses.). And I also believe that "direction" limits too much the interplay between the three internal "harmonies" or "correlations". But hey, anything that works the best for you is just fine. As always, YMMV.

Bao wrote:

Adam Mizner teaches them a certain way, more about releasing than moving.

Interesting... How does he teach to "release" mind and yi? And how would that "connect" or "harmonize" them?

I mean the external harmonies.

The first instruction regarding this is in the module explaining Huang Sheng Shyan's first Sung Gong exercise. He explains the movements as "long jin out" and "six harmonies down".

The long jin out is the pressure from the ground up to the hands as they rise to the side and the body is forward. The six harmonies down is the active release of the kua in hips and shoulders, then the knees and elbows, then the hands and feet as the hands fall and the body turns.

Alex Dong teaches that there are more, not really referencing the six harmonies but he outlines the various coordinations (hand to foot, hand to hand, foot to foot, etc) in his books.

What is "more"?

The antonym of fewer.

I believe it's more about peng and being strong in "8 directions" than 6 harmonies.

Well, traditionally speaking, in Chinese tradition, "6 harmonies" actually refers to "directions".
If you "release" or open all the joints in all directions, this is expansion, which most people refer to as "peng".
"Directions" is interesting from a tai chi perspective as it assumes there must be a center, or Zhong ding. However, "8 directions" is redundant as we already have "the five directions", which is in fact 8 or 10 directions, or how you want to interpret it.

However, I don't agree that the 6H would (mainly) be about peng, and I am not sure I really believe in the idea of "being strong" in all directions, which seems more like an ideal (Unfortunately our structure and balance will always have gaps and weaknesses.). And I also believe that "direction" limits too much the interplay between the three internal "harmonies" or "correlations". But hey, anything that works the best for you is just fine. As always, YMMV.

Metaphors are getting a bit mixed there.
Bear in mind this is my own misunderstanding so please don't blame the teachers I'm paraphrasing.

Directions does take different meanings, best not to get too hung up on the name and try to associate disparate concepts based on similar nomenclature. The five directions of taijiquan has nothing to do with strength in 8 directions in taijiquan. Neither are they simply "stepping". But we don't want to spiral further, do we?

So forget about 6 harmonies. As mentioned, that's xingyiquan, it has nothing to do with taijiquan. I'm not talking about 6 harmonies in taijiquan.

The more relevant organizing principle is peng. Achieve peng and manipulate peng. Which, sure, expansion of the joints is part of the means of achieving peng.

But the function of peng is that strength in 8 directions, up down, left right, forward back, in out. Round qi.

Instead of 6 harmonies, we think in terms of opposite pairs. Where there is a back there is a fore, left to right, front to back, in to out, up to down. Foot to hand, hand to hand, foot to foot, head to tailbone, spine to hand, feet to head, etc.

The timing isn't all at once even when it is fast as all at once, it's sequential and contextual. 6H doesn't cover the range and dynamics of the movement needed.

I know there's a tendency to reduce all CMA to 6 harmonies, Mike Sigman is a big proponent of this. That suggests that all arts are the same art. I don't agree.

I am often wrong.

3 external harmonies alone is easy - results in a different body method and looks a bit chopped up, not watery enough

3 internal harmonies alone is easy - pick any meditation method sitting or lying and basically you're working with this

3 and 3 together are hard, deep without end and result in something different than either of these alone

origami_itto wrote:

What is "more"?

The antonym of fewer.

Oh, that is what he meant. So Alex is teaching a language class... Interesting...

So forget about 6 harmonies. As mentioned, that's xingyiquan, it has nothing to do with taijiquan. I'm not talking about 6 harmonies in taijiquan.

The more relevant organizing principle is peng. Achieve peng and manipulate peng. Which, sure, expansion of the joints is part of the means of achieving peng.

But the function of peng is that strength in 8 directions, up down, left right, forward back, in out. Round qi.

Instead of 6 harmonies, we think in terms of opposite pairs. Where there is a back there is a fore, left to right, front to back, in to out, up to down. Foot to hand, hand to hand, foot to foot, head to tailbone, spine to hand, feet to head, etc.

I liked that sum up, or explanation. Yes, sounds more like Tai Chi theory.

I know there's a tendency to reduce all CMA to 6 harmonies, Mike Sigman is a big proponent of this. That suggests that all arts are the same art. I don't agree.

Generally agreed, though I can see some use of the 6H. It was Sun Lutang who brought this Xingyi theory into Tai Chi, though with a small modification. I can see a logic for using it in Sun and Hao(/Wu), as they use more dynamic following steps, similar to Xingyi. If the whole body moves, or walks, then coordinating elbow-knee and shoulder-hip becomes quite natural, or automatic.

Quigga wrote:3 and 3 together are hard, deep without end and result in something different than either of these alone

I liked that, nicely put.

Bao wrote:

origami_itto wrote:

What is "more"?

The antonym of fewer.

Oh, that is what he meant. So Alex is teaching a language class... Interesting...

Again I don't want to misspeak here.

What I meant is that he teaches there are more coordinations than the six harmonies, and that is entirely my own synthesis of the material, he has not put those words together in my presence or in print but I'm going to make a point of asking.

The workshop notes book, definitely get a copy. It will probably make even more sense to you than it does to me.

Quigga wrote:3 external harmonies alone is easy - results in a different body method and looks a bit chopped up, not watery enough

3 internal harmonies alone is easy - pick any meditation method sitting or lying and basically you're working with this

3 and 3 together are hard, deep without end and result in something different than either of these alone

Agreed. That's very true. The resultant 'whole' is definitely a third energy dynamic which is greater than the sum total of its component parts.

Bao wrote:

origami_itto wrote:]Adam Mizner teaches them a certain way, more about releasing than moving.

Interesting... How does he teach to "release" mind and yi? And how would that "connect" or "harmonize" them?

Haven't watched the whole thing here, recently, I THINK this is where he introduces the concept.

origami_itto wrote:Haven't watched the whole thing here, recently, I THINK this is where he introduces the concept.

It's just a basic relaxation exercise, has nothing to do with the 6H, neither external nor internal.

Bao wrote:

origami_itto wrote:Haven't watched the whole thing here, recently, I THINK this is where he introduces the concept.

It's just a basic relaxation exercise, has nothing to do with the 6H, neither external nor internal.

Yeah, he puts those terms on things in the "level two" video for the exercise. Not available for free unfortunately.

The mechanics are all there already basically though, this lays the groundwork for consciously and intentionally releasing the parts with awareness in sequence. In the next level of instruction he pairs it with the bottom half and calls that sequence of release the six harmonies.

Quigga wrote:3 external harmonies alone is easy - results in a different body method and looks a bit chopped up, not watery enough

3 internal harmonies alone is easy - pick any meditation method sitting or lying and basically you're working with this

3 and 3 together are hard, deep without end and result in something different than either of these alone

nice one.

Huangs exercises are way beyond mere relaxation but not the way they are presented today
The 6 harmonies are paramount
,”1 ,2 and 3 work on the 3 external
4&5 the 3 internal
Just because people do something with the essence missing does not mean it is not meant to be there