Unbroken Circularity

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby Giles on Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:23 am

everything wrote:anybody have some concrete examples of this topic or the sub-topics? guess not? (I'm ok with totally abstract philosophy ... but it'd be cool if the "circularity" was about something slightly more concrete, too. OP/appledog didn't really seem to specify what he wanted to talk about IIRC )


I'm giving a fairly 'concrete' workshop on this theme - or at least a theme that might be subsumed under the thread title - at the upcoming Prague Push-Hands Meet in September. The workshop description should give a reasonable impression of my theme - I don't know if this is what Appledog means or not.
http://www.push-hands.cz/schedule
I could write a bit more about this theme but the workshop text is for starters.

-- I was actually waiting to have a couple of new vids of my tuishou/applications work online before posting anything about my teaching. You know, "you want to talk about stuff, then show your own videos". There is some stuff online and it's not terrible, but it's years and years old and doesn't really represent where I am nowadays, indeed I now find some stuff a bit cringey. We shot material for two separate vids months ago but in each case the editing and post-production is stuck in limbo, and it will be a couple of months more before the vids go online. So what the hell...
Last edited by Giles on Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby origami_itto on Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:52 am

everything wrote:maybe still abstract for me (which is fine, i'm not the let's only discuss punch-face guy), but damn, i like that writing. on a roll, man.

Okay so how about this then.

I was watching "Three Body" the Chinese sci-fi series based on the novel and one of the scientists was explaining something. Don't remember what he was explaining exactly but I remember he used a radio.

So he has the radio and asks this other guy where is the radio. Other guy points. Okay, fine, we have a radio.

He takes the plastic cover off and then detaches the three components that make up the radio, antenna, oscillator, speaker, and sets them down.

Then he asks, where is the radio? Other guy can't point to it because "Radio" is a name given to the specific functioning of those components in a specific configuration and relationship to each other.

So where I'll start to be less correct is in saying that the Qi of the radio is what carries the signal from the air through the circuitry into sound. It's what draws out and exposes that information. Each component has their Qi and by connecting the inputs and outputs properly we draw sound from air.

If the components are misaligned, interfered with, or functioning less than optimally it affects the quality of the sound that is produced. The entire system must be in tune and well maintained for best results and your maximum listening enjoyment.

So human body we have that whatever TCM Qi related to breath and nutrition,etc, and that is definitely worth nourishing and learning to manipulate and Taijiquan definitely has some of that. The other kind of Qi is essentially developing the ability to be aware of and manipulate these differences of potential first within the body and then through joining with other objects and people, within them as well.

And it feels like I'm going on forever here... and for what point.

Energy, that travels on a force, is circulated through the body the way water runs down the side of a sandy hill. Left alone it tends to scatter quickly, but you can draw a little channel with your finger to guide the water where you want it to go. You can't make it turn too sharply, but you can influence it a great deal. You can't push it, but you can let it flow as fast as physics allows by changing your angles.

So let's say in a classic "locked up" sort of situation, instead of trying to push through the other person, overpowering them by exerting more force against their force, we draw a channel with our finger, the qi finds it, and the jin follows the path of least resistance.

I'm pretty sure this was a response to a shoulder stroke. Incoming force guided to the ground and neutralized, then a slight movement to tease up the root and let my force follow the path of least resistance.
Image

So in Tjq, ideally, we're installing a pump at the bottom of the hill that continuously replenishes the source at the top.

And that really is the original question, circularity.

instead of broken straight line force that starts and stops, taijiquan moves on and on like the great river. There is no stop and start, so each part of each movement is motivated by guiding that river of water down the hill by manipulating the differentials in your body, not by the sudden contraction of muscles.
Last edited by origami_itto on Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:59 am

Giles do the other two teachers mentioned here post on this site
If so what names do they use
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby everything on Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:58 am

origami_itto wrote:
everything wrote:maybe still abstract for me (which is fine, i'm not the let's only discuss punch-face guy), but damn, i like that writing. on a roll, man.

Okay so how about this then.

I was watching "Three Body" the Chinese sci-fi series based on the novel and one of the scientists was explaining something. Don't remember what he was explaining exactly but I remember he used a radio.

So he has the radio and asks this other guy where is the radio. Other guy points. Okay, fine, we have a radio.

He takes the plastic cover off and then detaches the three components that make up the radio, antenna, oscillator, speaker, and sets them down.

Then he asks, where is the radio? Other guy can't point to it because "Radio" is a name given to the specific functioning of those components in a specific configuration and relationship to each other.

So where I'll start to be less correct is in saying that the Qi of the radio is what carries the signal from the air through the circuitry into sound. It's what draws out and exposes that information. Each component has their Qi and by connecting the inputs and outputs properly we draw sound from air.

If the components are misaligned, interfered with, or functioning less than optimally it affects the quality of the sound that is produced. The entire system must be in tune and well maintained for best results and your maximum listening enjoyment.

So human body we have that whatever TCM Qi related to breath and nutrition,etc, and that is definitely worth nourishing and learning to manipulate and Taijiquan definitely has some of that. The other kind of Qi is essentially developing the ability to be aware of and manipulate these differences of potential first within the body and then through joining with other objects and people, within them as well.

And it feels like I'm going on forever here... and for what point.

Energy, that travels on a force, is circulated through the body the way water runs down the side of a sandy hill. Left alone it tends to scatter quickly, but you can draw a little channel with your finger to guide the water where you want it to go. You can't make it turn too sharply, but you can influence it a great deal. You can't push it, but you can let it flow as fast as physics allows by changing your angles.

So let's say in a classic "locked up" sort of situation, instead of trying to push through the other person, overpowering them by exerting more force against their force, we draw a channel with our finger, the qi finds it, and the jin follows the path of least resistance.

I'm pretty sure this was a response to a shoulder stroke. Incoming force guided to the ground and neutralized, then a slight movement to tease up the root and let my force follow the path of least resistance.
Image

So in Tjq, ideally, we're installing a pump at the bottom of the hill that continuously replenishes the source at the top.

And that really is the original question, circularity.

instead of broken straight line force that starts and stops, taijiquan moves on and on like the great river. There is no stop and start, so each part of each movement is motivated by guiding that river of water down the hill by manipulating the differentials in your body, not by the sudden contraction of muscles.


Thanks a lot for answering more. Great writing. I get the idea of blending as in template fixed ph roll back or a sacrifice throw. Not sure I understand "energy" to help with "yin/yang" and changes, not because of anything you said or didn't say. Just not sure if I do, at least not well. Will try some experiments, most likely non-ph.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby everything on Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:35 am

Giles wrote:
everything wrote:anybody have some concrete examples of this topic or the sub-topics? guess not? (I'm ok with totally abstract philosophy ... but it'd be cool if the "circularity" was about something slightly more concrete, too. OP/appledog didn't really seem to specify what he wanted to talk about IIRC )


I'm giving a fairly 'concrete' workshop on this theme - or at least a theme that might be subsumed under the thread title - at the upcoming Prague Push-Hands Meet in September. The workshop description should give a reasonable impression of my theme - I don't know if this is what Appledog means or not.
http://www.push-hands.cz/schedule
I could write a bit more about this theme but the workshop text is for starters.

-- I was actually waiting to have a couple of new vids of my tuishou/applications work online before posting anything about my teaching. You know, "you want to talk about stuff, then show your own videos". There is some stuff online and it's not terrible, but it's years and years old and doesn't really represent where I am nowadays, indeed I now find some stuff a bit cringey. We shot material for two separate vids months ago but in each case the editing and post-production is stuck in limbo, and it will be a couple of months more before the vids go online. So what the hell...


Ah wow that sounds super cool and fun. Envious of you guys doing fun PH meet-ups. Somehow happy to know someone is out there progressing.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:09 am

origami_itto wrote:

So where I'll start to be less correct is in saying that the Qi of the radio is what carries the signal from the air through the circuitry into sound. It's what draws out and exposes that information. Each component has their Qi and by connecting the inputs and outputs properly we draw sound from air.

If the components are misaligned, interfered with, or functioning less than optimally it affects the quality of the sound that is produced. The entire system must be in tune and well maintained for best results and your maximum listening enjoyment.

So human body we have that whatever TCM Qi related to breath and nutrition,etc, and that is definitely worth nourishing and learning to manipulate and Taijiquan definitely has some of that. The other kind of Qi is essentially developing the ability to be aware of and manipulate these differences of potential first within the body and then through joining with other objects and people, within them as well.

And it feels like I'm going on forever here... and for what point.

Energy, that travels on a force, is circulated through the body the way water runs down the side of a sandy hill. Left alone it tends to scatter quickly, but you can draw a little channel with your finger to guide the water where you want it to go. You can't make it turn too sharply, but you can influence it a great deal. You can't push it, but you can let it flow as fast as physics allows by changing your angles.

So let's say in a classic "locked up" sort of situation, instead of trying to push through the other person, overpowering them by exerting more force against their force, we draw a channel with our finger, the qi finds it, and the jin follows the path of least resistance.

I'm pretty sure this was a response to a shoulder stroke. Incoming force guided to the ground and neutralized, then a slight movement to tease up the root and let my force follow the path of least resistance.

So in Tjq, ideally, we're installing a pump at the bottom of the hill that continuously replenishes the source at the top.

And that really is the original question, circularity.

instead of broken straight line force that starts and stops, taijiquan moves on and on like the great river. There is no stop and start, so each part of each movement is motivated by guiding that river of water down the hill by manipulating the differentials in your body, not by the sudden contraction of muscles.



Just cursory reading,,,why would some question the reactions of others doing things using "QI" that they may not agree with or understand and then use "QI" in explanation of what they do ?

Understand "circularity" as being connected within ourselves and joining ie sticking, with another making them a lager part of the self...
the question for many is connected to what followed by how or what is being stuck to...


In "my practice"

we distinguish between the virtual and the real....treating them the same...
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby twocircles13 on Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:03 am

everything wrote:anybody have some concrete examples of this topic or the sub-topics? guess not? (I'm ok with totally abstract philosophy ... but it'd be cool if the "circularity" was about something slightly more concrete, too. OP/appledog didn't really seem to specify what he wanted to talk about IIRC )


As mentioned before, in our system, we don’t talk much about “qi”, not because we couldn’t, but because it is not well understood, even in modern China, much less the rest of the world. So, a student comes in with a cup full of preconceived, popular notions from a variety of disciplines, and it takes him or her months, or years, if ever, to empty his or her cup to understand what we are talking about. I think this brief side-topic illustrates this pretty well.

"Unbroken circularity” is another term we do not use, but we use the rotation that would create unbroken circularity.

Here are a couple of videos by my senior brother, Ronnie Yee. See if you can spot all the rotations. Angles are important, but correctly performing the rotation is key.



Last edited by twocircles13 on Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:12 am

twocircles13 wrote:


very nice ;)

Although he doesn't mention the pointing of finger or palm ;D

its there :)
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby twocircles13 on Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:16 am

Deleted an odd duplicate post.
Last edited by twocircles13 on Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby everything on Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:22 am

thanks for those videos. the topic brings up a tangent in my mind that a lot of threads make me think about. maybe it's another thread topic. we seem to talk mostly about taijiquan if we talk IMA here. but it doesn't seem like "blending" and "soft" and "rotational" within those templates"is the only "IMA".

xingyiquan and "kao" come to mind. sometimes in futbol i accidentally or on purpose "kao" someone. there isn't necessarily "rotation". there can just be the right angle, nevermind "internal" anything. a guy tried to go around me but his dead angle just hit my strong angle so he fell. i suppose we can argue that one's body might go orthogonal to the "line of force" and so there is the tiniest of "rotations" as a shoulder bump goes one way but there is a tiny rotation to move some of that horizontal direction of force downward as well as the footwork adjustments happen. i tend to think it's more of a counter-example, with more "linearity" and less "circularity". but we could say it's all using little bits of circularity. this example seems concrete, but the concept is still abstract to me. i could argue either way. or maybe we just say it's always angles AND rotations (and "qi" but we can leave that out for the moment).
Last edited by everything on Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:38 am

Would say, no.

Not a matter of speculation of how it’s done or why it’s done .
More of a matter, if you can do it, or not, explanations, follow of how one feels they do it .

What’s shown is very similar, if not the same, as the approach and usage of the practice
we focus on.

Explanation might be different, does it matter?
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby everything on Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:59 am

think it only matters if someone can say "here's how to do this..." and people can follow.

otherwise, it seems impossible, at least to me, if anybody is talking about the same thing at all or if the abstract idea of a circle is way too vague. idk, wasn't sure what the thread was about and appledog may have left it already, lol.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby origami_itto on Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:39 am

windwalker wrote:Just cursory reading,,,why would some question the reactions of others doing things using "QI" that they may not agree with or understand and then use "QI" in explanation of what they do ?

Just because I use a word or concept doesn't mean I buy into you making your friends hop by waving your hands at them as anything more than compliance.

I am not referring to Qi as some substance in and of itself, read deeper.
we distinguish between the virtual and the real....treating them the same...

Yes, I do believe that some people treat the imaginary and the actual as equivalent.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:36 pm

origami_itto wrote:
windwalker wrote:Just cursory reading,,,why would some question the reactions of others doing things using "QI" that they may not agree with or understand and then use "QI" in explanation of what they do ?

Just because I use a word or concept doesn't mean I buy into you making your friends hop by waving your hands at them as anything more than compliance.

I am not referring to Qi as some substance in and of itself, read deeper.
we distinguish between the virtual and the real....treating them the same...

Yes, I do believe that some people treat the imaginary and the actual as equivalent.


Then why use the word ?
Not asking you or anyone to buy into anything. I am questioning why somebody would use the word from a different culture trying to attribute other things not within or from the culture .

Read deeper, not about reading . It’s about doing.

Try doing instead of writing about it
Denying what you’ve just written about.

The theory about why things work and how is well documented attributed to the work of many masters, demonstrating the same concepts in use.

Many people can quote, few can do

Compliance , the clips you posted are not is that what you’re trying to say ?
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unbroken Circularity

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:42 pm

Yes, I do believe that some people treat the imaginary and the actual as equivalent.


If you understood what it refers to .

Has nothing to do with imagination, rather awareness and perception .
A reality for those who’s practices lead them skill sets to use this .
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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