Uniform Speed in Form Training

[dragonprawn]

I wanted any opinions on this. I practice Yang style forms. Even in our long form we are told Yang Cheng Fu took out double jump kick so the form could be practiced slowly and at a uniform pace. This is generally fine with me as I have that kick in my broadsword form anyway and I like to do empty hand forms slowly most of the time, except when training fast form.

But the question becomes, is it really that important to keep a uniform pace? I have seen Masters' demos where the whole form is slow except for sweep lotus kick, and I often feel like speeding that one up myself. I also think about the spins in the form. On a smooth surface I can slow them down to match the rest of the movements in terms of speed and hit my mark. On concrete in rubber soles it is difficult to spin correctly at any speed anyway. But the "wind up - unwind" motion of these, like lotus gets me thinking again about uniform pacing.

Do you change speeds in kicks, spins or otherwise within a single form?

[origami_itto]

I try to go as fast as I can with the most correct movement of energy I can manage, that's usually pretty slow, it changes in some places slightly because of my conditioning in that particular movement and the nature of the movement, usually that means slows down more.

I just let my body tell me how fast I can get away with it.

Going fast sort of smooths over the gaps and hollows and keeps them from being exposed and eliminated.

Slow for slow's sake can be as bad as fast for fast's sake, though. It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking you're doing something.

Sometimes for fun I release it quickly, but not as the main training exercise.

[dragonprawn]

I was thinking more along the lines of if you are already accomplished at both slow and fast speeds. Then, sort of like the form practice becoming less formal over time as you add your own flavor is changing speeds ok? And also along the lines of should YCF have done this in the first place?

[origami_itto]

The form is the finger, not the moon.

[everything]

it seems strange (and difficult) to do kicks slowly

[yeniseri]

I wanted any opinions on this. I practice Yang style forms. Even in our long form we are told Yang Cheng Fu took out double jump kick so the form could be practiced slowly and at a uniform pace. This is generally fine with me as I have that kick in my broadsword form anyway and I like to do empty hand forms slowly most of the time, except when training fast form.

But the question becomes, is it really that important to keep a uniform pace? I have seen Masters' demos where the whole form is slow except for sweep lotus kick, and I often feel like speeding that one up myself. I also think about the spins in the form. On a smooth surface I can slow them down to match the rest of the movements in terms of speed and hit my mark. On concrete in rubber soles it is difficult to spin correctly at any speed anyway. But the "wind up - unwind" motion of these, like lotus gets me thinking again about uniform pacing.

Do you change speeds in kicks, spins or otherwise within a single form?

Uniform pace of taijiquan training is a recent development when compared to the past where it appears that forms (taolu) was faster and tended to be more vigorous, or slowed but with sudden changes of posture and movement (Chen style manner). Providing one is doing jibengong, pressure testing, shuaijiao mechanics!!! If one is only doing slow form practice and nothing else then what one is doing is exercise.

[everything]

"internal bodybuilding" (I think Dmitri phrased that?). not necessarily related but "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" (US Navy Seals?)

[charles]

It seems to me that one ought to identify what one wants from their practice or training. What one practices - and how one practices it - ought to be a reflection of that.

That raises the obvious question of why is much of Taijiquan forms practice performed slowly? What is the reason for practicing slowly: what skills or abilities comes from that practice? The obvious next question is what skills and abilities come from practicing at a faster pace? Ditto for practicing only softly, regardless of speed, versus practicing using "force" (e.g., fa jin)? Ditto for practicing with empty hands versus weapons or adjunct tools (e.g., ball, bang, ruler, spear, staff, sword ...)?

My suggestion is that forms can be practiced differently from one day to the next, one repetition to the next, with different focus. Practice slowly, softly, quickly, "forcefully" and anyway in-between, depending upon what you want from your training. One teacher I knew suggested that the empty-hand form is a laboratory where one experiments with things. Try all manner of things in your forms practice and learn things from each one.

Ultimately, figure out what you want from your training and make the training your own to achieve that, rather than following dogma or standardized platitudes of it being this way or that.

[windwalker]

Think its hard to know why things change as some have suggested....
or whether they'er recent developments,
maybe ?

Or a different focus...

. She was surprised that I hadn't learned more postures.] Mrs. Zheng observed me doing the form.

She asked the Professor why he hadn't taught me more, and he said that my leg was shaking like a pipa string.

" She said that times change, and the Professor shouldn't teach me like Prof. Yang taught him. After this, the Professor began to teach me the next postures.
Later, he changed his teaching style when he came to the United States.

which might have given rise to some of misconceptions some have concerning solo practice,,

In fact, I was surprised to learn when I visited the Professor's New York school that the students there had seen him do the entire form.

[wayne hansen]

Speed any height remain constant
They vary for lotus and creep down
These are the exceptions that fortify the rule

[Bao]

Sun style is not slow, neither is wu/hao, and if you look at older clips of especially wu but also some yang, you can see that they are rather fast than slow. But they all move even with the same pace.

Slow is good to help the mind and breath slow down and become, but the mind can, and should, be calm and empty while moving fast as well.

If Tai Chi is internal and focus on mind, then going slow or fast shouldn't matter, right?

[dragonprawn]

Thank you all for the comments. Though I have been at this a long time I am always learning from others.
Thank you Wayne for the most direct answer - I don't necessarily desire to speed up Snake Creeps Down though (I used to when I was less flexible, found it difficult and just wanted to get it over with ). That is interesting. And does this mean I should speed up snake a bit? I mean should in the sense of if I want to comply with that method. Can I ask the source?

[Appledog]

I was thinking more along the lines of if you are already accomplished at both slow and fast speeds. Then, sort of like the form practice becoming less formal over time as you add your own flavor is changing speeds ok? And also along the lines of should YCF have done this in the first place?

Thank you all for the comments. Though I have been at this a long time I am always learning from others.
Thank you Wayne for the most direct answer - I don't necessarily desire to speed up Snake Creeps Down though (I used to when I was less flexible, found it difficult and just wanted to get it over with ). That is interesting. And does this mean I should speed up snake a bit? I mean should in the sense of if I want to comply with that method. Can I ask the source?

Not sure what you mean by asking the source, what would the question be? For opinions, there are a million of those. I would be more concerned with why. But to answer the question above, yes, once you are accomplished at both slow and fast speeds, you can move however you want. Obviously people do not move slow during fighting, so the slow (or fast) speed has to do with matching the situation and not some apparently unknown goal which requires placing restrictions on your movement.

And as for speeding up snake creeps down or any other move, that is completely up to you, I guess. Nothing of this all really matters very much. I would say it only adds maybe 20% efficiency. You will still get there if you don't speed up snake creeps down. Then again, 20% here, 30% there and soon we are talking real numbers. I mean, there are reasons, but not knowing what they are or precisely how important they are (nothing is black and white 100% or 0%) can lead people to cling to useless traditions.

[windwalker]

Original content can be viewed by clicking on the link written in Chinese.

原始内容可通过点击中文链接进行查看。

google translate

There have been different opinions and opinions from ancient times to the present, but Mr. Wang Peisheng summed it up in four words: “the resultant force is zero”.

Feel if one can follow this,,,speed of practice, is in material

[wayne hansen]

I didn’t mean you changed the speed on snake
I was referring to the height
Change of speed is fine but it’s how you change it and why
Just remember the long form is not designed to be done fast unless you adjust footwork and the size of the circles