dropping the elbow

[windwalker]

"this video will explore the anatomy, relative movement, and optimal alignment of the bones of upper arm and forearm for maximizing expansive strength (nèi jìn) and qi. For more on Tàijí, and for unconventional essays on health, please check out my web site https://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/"

Interesting outlook,,,do others agree ?

Has written other articles based on his PhD in physics explaining Taiji principles.

A Clarification of “Secret” Teachings Revealed by Cheng Man-ch’ing

[LaoDan]

Could you be more specific about what you find “interesting” and want comment on?

I would not argue about how the bones and joints of the arm work so, yes, I guess that I would agree with those parts of the video.

If you are asking about him stating nèi jìn = “expansive strength” (as opposed to contractile strength), then I would not agree (I think that nèi jìn can apply to both expanding and contracting, pushing and pulling…).

If you are asking about his statement that a fully rotated forearm is “tense” (or would necessarily feel tense) then I would not agree. I would say that it is certainly limited in its rotation, but that the muscles of the forearm could be either tense or relaxed, depending on how the practitioner is using their muscles in order to perform the forearm rotation. The rotation is limited by the bones bumping against each other, and not because the muscles need to be tense (i.e., an anesthetized arm could still be fully rotated without the need for the muscles to have unnecessary tension).

If you are asking about a coordination of the elbow with the forearm rotation then, yes, I guess that I would agree (although many forearm rotations may not need or benefit from simultaneous elbow rotations, while other situations do benefit). I would say that it was dependent on the specific situation. So, if you are interpreting what he says as implying that one should always rotate one’s elbow when turning the palm, then I would not agree. If you are thinking that rotating the elbow while turning the palm would allow increased range of rotation for the hand, then I would agree.

It would be helpful if you asked specific questions rather than simply stating “Interesting outlook,,,do others agree?”!

[everything]

i couldn't get very far with it. is he just saying "this joint has more degrees of freedom"? idk. ok, i guess.

[windwalker]

It would be helpful if you asked specific questions rather than simply stating “Interesting outlook,,,do others agree?”!

"do others agree"

with his outlook and presentation....

It would "interesting" to read what "others may or may not agree with or find interesting

Find his outlook interesting, presented from a view point tying it to his level of understanding, ability,
with his PHD level physics back ground

Other teachers at different levels of understanding and ability in "taiji" may see it differently

"That is Scales, in each movement is the scale moving. What is shifting?
Shift our body center point, look at this when I move, What is the actual? Look!
Sinking shoulder and elbow.....shoulder and elbow.

[windwalker]

i couldn't get very far with it. is he just saying "this joint has more degrees of freedom"? idk. ok, i guess.

Well

One might ask if "dropping the elbow" is the same as "sinking the elbow" as is most often said
in Chinese,,,"sink the elbow"


indirectly he seems to reference opening and closing, with out explicitly stating it....
among other things...

Find his writings interesting due to his educational level in physics,
applied to his practice of taiji.

Maybe when his taiji level reaches his physics level it will change

[windwalker]

Another old master talking about sinking the elbow

Seminar of Master GAO Zhuangfei in Moscow. July 2011 Lyceum 1535. Translates and assists -
a student of the Master GAO - Alexander Pikover. Shooting and editing - Lilia and Igor Sukhorukov.

The master uses a pendulum to show why, the effects of sinking the elbow.

Master Gao Zhuang Fei a noted student of

Master Wang Peisheng

[everything]

so there is a sort of "weight hung from a point" analogy?

[LaoDan]

"do others agree"

with his outlook and presentation....

It would "interesting" to read what "others may or may not agree with or find interesting

If you just want to know if others find “his outlook and presentation” to be “interesting” rather than discussing some specific aspect that you found interesting then, for me, unlike for you, I find his outlook and presentation in that video to be uninteresting.

[windwalker]

windwalker wrote:

"this video will explore the anatomy, relative movement, and optimal alignment of the bones of upper arm and forearm for maximizing

expansive strength (nèi jìn) and qi.

For more on Tàijí, and for unconventional essays on health, please check out my web site https://www.chuckrowtaichi.com/"

Interesting outlook,,,do others agree ?

with "his" outlook....

Has in part defined his outlook of (nèi jìn) as expansive strength..One might ask what is his view of expansive strength

excerpt

Use of expansive strength.

When expansive muscular strength is used, all contractive strength is released, allowing the body to liquefy.

When strength is required while in this liquefied state, nerve impulses that normally are utilized to cause muscles to contract, instead, cause the water in the muscle cells to expand and, thereby, become pressurized.

This pressure pervades the whole body. A principle in physics, called Pascal’s principle, states: “Any change in the pressure at any point in a confined liquid is accompanied by the same change in pressure at every other point.”

During the exertion of external force, if any increase or decrease is required by external conditions, there is no need for any neurological activity or analytical processing; because of Pascal’s principle, as soon as there is a sudden increase or decrease in external force,

the hydraulic pressure within the body automatically adjusts, virtually instantaneously.

Stability

One important distinction between contractive and expansive strength applies to the exertion of force on you by an opponent (or the exertion of force by you on him). A basic principle in physics that governs situations involving the application of force of one body on an other is Newton’s third law, which states: “If object A exerts a force on object B, then B exerts an equal and opposite force on A.” This law applies to all bodies—sentient or not, stationary or moving. A corollary of Newton’s third law is that it is impossible for you to exert a force on another person or object without that person or object exerting the same force back on you (See Fig. 1).

Interesting statement

"When strength is required while in this liquefied state, nerve impulses that normally are utilized to cause muscles to contract, instead, cause the water in the muscle cells to expand and, thereby, become pressurized. "

Is this an accurate description of what happens after contraction and reuse of a muscle group...?

For most Chinese long time practitioners I've met they would characterized the expensive feeling as the Qi, referring to it as "air" or "gas" expanding...
following their thoughts on how the body / Qi interact....

comments ?

Note: Find his comments interesting considering his back ground

"Chuckrow’s Ph.D. is in experimental physics from NYU. He has taught physics at NYU, The Cooper Union,
Fieldston, and other schools for forty-three years."

Taiji teaches he's studied under and taiji work

"He has studied T’ai Chi (Taiji), Ch’i Kung (Qigong), and other movement and healing arts since 1970 under masters such as Cheng Man-ch’ing, William C.C. Chen, Elaine Summers (1925–2014) (read my talk at a celebration for her in 2004), Alice Holtman, Harvey I. Sober, Kevin Harrington, and Chin Fan-siong. He has taught T’ai Chi extensively, is certified as a master teacher of Kinetic Awareness®"

My own interest focused on his relating principles in Taiji to physics

[LaoDan]

Chuckrow is a physicist, not a biochemist or physiologist. His statements about physics are fine, but he has no specialized knowledge about physiology.

His statement that “when expansive muscular strength is used, all contractive strength is released” makes no sense to me (from a bio-mechanical perspective), since if ALL “contractive strength” were to be released, one would collapse onto the ground like someone under general anesthesia would. We stand and move because of the levers provided by our bones and the muscles attached to them. If your remove the muscles from the bones, then the skeleton is incapable of standing or moving on its own.

He concludes the quoted sentence with “allowing the body to liquefy” which also makes no sense. While the average male body contains about 60% water (females about 55%), and even the bones contain about 22% water, the remaining components do not “liquefy” when we relax our muscles. We are NOT like a water-filled balloon. We have many small compartments (cells) that contain various amounts of fluids. We do NOT “liquefy”!

Any subsequent speculation based on these apparently erroneous assumptions cannot be taken seriously unless someone is able to substantiate the underlying claims.

[LaoDan]

Chuckrow states that “nerve impulses that normally are utilized to cause muscles to contract, instead, cause the water in the muscle cells to expand and, thereby, become pressurized.” I have NO idea where he could have come up with this notion! I doubt that our bodies are capable of working this way, and I do not know of any studies that would support his statement.

My understanding, based on my “view point tying it to” my “level of understanding, ability” would be as follows:
Nerve impulses (cell membrane depolarizations) trigger the L-type calcium channels in the cell membranes. The skeletal isoform of L-type calcium channels are in close proximity to the Ryanodine receptor in the triad junction, allowing a signal from a conformational change in the L-type calcium channels’ protein structure to physically interact with the Ryanodine receptor and trigger it to open, which releases calcium from the endoplasmic reticulum storage compartments in the cell. This calcium, which rapidly diffuses through the cell, then triggers muscle contractions.

I do not see any mechanism that would allow nerve impulses to “cause the water in the muscle cells to expand.” Therefore, I also do not see any mechanism that would result in the cells becoming “pressurized” as a result of nerve impulses.

[denchen]

One of the first things I learnt in boxing is to drop the elbow, protect your ribs/kidney.
'Chicken winging' marked you out as inexperienced and was quickly corrected, either by the coach
or through self preservation.
WC also maintains sunk/dropped elbow for same reasons and many other arts I'm sure.

[everything]

I think I'm at the opposite ends of the spectrum. It's "interesting" but not "elucidating". This is what I've found with phd physicists who are taiji enthusiasts in general, as a side rant. My dad worked as a phd physicist and had some similar phd physicist buddies. TLDR: they had no special ability to explain, coach, or learn taiji or even sports. Is this guy different? Sure doesn't seem like it. "Qi" is frustrating to so many here and everywhere, but in its vagueness, it seems 50000x more useful to me. A lot of the intellectual types (myself included) have to learn to get out of their own way, but many (most?) never do. As much as I always respond there isn't a "one physics" (they are working on it) when some average-idiot here or anywhere starts saying "physics...", I'd rather listen to you guys try to talk physics, lol (this isn't really saying much, btw).

[charles]

My own interest focused on his relating principles in Taiji to physics

There is a difference between science (e.g., physics) and unsubstantiated hypothesis that uses scientific terms. Simply including scientific terms doesn't make it "science".

Is there ANY objective evidence supporting his hypothesis that the body "liquefies" and "cause[s] the water in the muscle cells to expand, and, thereby, become pressurized"? If not, it is simply conjecture, unsubstantiated opinion or "belief", the antithesis of "science". In the absence of substantiation that this actually happens, applying Pascal's law might, or might not, be relevant. Pascal's law is substantiated science: that the water in muscle cells expand to "liquefy" the body is not, as far as I'm aware, and is his belief, his unsubstantiated hypothesis that one choses, or not, to take on faith.

People are free to - and frequently do - believe all sorts of things that have no substantiating evidence to support that belief. Beliefs ranging from the Earth being flat, that heavier objects fall faster to the sun revolving about the Earth. Believing such things doesn't necessarily make them true. Nor does it make them science. As Nietzsche stated, "A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows faith does not prove anything."

My experience has been that often when Taijiquan practitioners attempt to apply (Western) "science" to what they do they attempt to superimpose some science-sounding terminology on their practice. More often than not, it is an after-the-fact force-fitting of "science" onto that practice. Often there is a grain of valid applicability but the rest is often a fanciful make-believe.

One can see a similar situation in Mr. Chuckrow's video on "Dong and Dang", something written in one of CMC's books. The video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU2Kr5GGxEo. (I'll avoid a discussion of the validity of much of CMC's application of "science".) Regardless of how involved one believes inertia is in Taijiquan movement, part of his theory/understanding is based on a specific interpretation of how Taijiquan should be applied. For example, if pushing forward with the arms, should the torso purposely move backwards as a whole, such as his demonstration at 11:45? In my practice, no, at least for my practice, negating his "analysis" of how inertia should be "harnessed". That suggests to me the usual, do-the-form-one-way, apply-it-another.

That brings us to the video you posted initially. You raise good questions about it. In answer to those questions, I suggest the following. Generally, Taijiquan is based on some principles shared by all styles of practice. However, there is considerable difference in how those principles are interpreted and physically implemented. While what he suggests regarding the interaction between rotating of the palm and pivoting the arm from the elbow is true, how that is implemented is heavily style dependent: what is "right" for one style is "wrong" for another. What he says is "right" for what he practices but isn't universally "right" for all practitioners.

Altering the direction the palm faces is an important element in the body mechanics in Chen style Taijiquan and is a common element of chan si jin. As has been discussed in a different discussion, different sub-styles of Chen approach chan si jin differently. Those differences are relevant to Mr. Chuckrow's discussion of how the elbow and/or shoulder joint are involved in changing the direction that the palm faces.

[windwalker]

@Charles

always find it interesting reading or looking at others work...
More so for those I find disagreement with, in order to understand my own work
and past interactions with others who explain things in a different way...

Generally, Taijiquan is based on some principles shared by all styles of practice. However, there is considerable difference in how those principles are interpreted and physically implemented.

agree...another point of interest


kind regards