Qi - A Pot of Rice

[Ad_B]

Qi, the power, nature and function of any energised particle.

Proton, neutron, electron? Higgs Bosun? Quarks?
Is there such a thing as a "non-energised" particle?

Quite right, but for all intents and purposes, I meant active as opposed to inactive, interactive/lively as opposed to sedentary/dormant or more yang rather than more yin ?

A live and functional battery versus a dead battery?

What they are describing is respiration and metabolisation in terms of the imagery by which they understood things ?

If so, wouldn't the 'qi' of the 'pot of rice' be basically, oxygenated and nutrified blood and the 'the power, nature and function' of that as it feeds mitochondrial activity and output (ching?)?

H.D.Roth in Origional Tao, Inward Training, notes:

"Our conceptually distinct line between energy and matter is blurred in the traditional Chincese concept of [qi], translated here as vital energy or vital breath in contexts in which breathing meditation is discussed. In the very earliest texts [qi] refers to the vapours or steam arising from the heating of water or [liquids] and not much later, the air we breathe. Hence many scholars have translated [qi] as vapour, But to do this underplays its association with biological life and vitality "

Appears to suggest that whatever its (qi) evolutionary and conceptual properties, they were always had 'vitality' .....energy?

[Ad_B]

I am very much am interested in learning what others think of Qi.

Qigong-qi, actively promoting and directing the processes of respiration, metabolism, physical structure and general systemic health by ingesting and directing energised particles.

this seems "good enough" for normal people and helpful.

what do we really know about the yi, the qi, the li? probably not much.
in the AI bionic arm example (sorry to not look up the thread link), an "AI" helmet "listens" to the man's brain signals and interprets (black box algorithm afaik) and sends (the correct) signals wirelessly to an implant at the base of the spine. then he can walk.

we can say this is "yi", "qi", and "li". do they know exactly how it works? that's the funny thing about AI. no. just as we don't know how the modern AI chess algorithms work (the computer devises its own solution and isn't taught human solutions).

does that make people uncomfortable? yes. is it practical, though? yes.

our "job" is to be like the "AI" and devise the "function" of the "yi", "qi", and "li" without actually being able to "write out the formula". qi is not a function in this case. it's one of the variables.

I agree. This topic has far too many 'rabbit holes', analogies, metaphores, imageries, enigmas etc and potential for mistranslation and misunderstanding to do any more than 'just do it' and accept that everything they decribe is natural process, dynamic and function that occurs in nature and in us beit subconcious, semiconscious or as we are encouraged to train, fully conscious and aware and do some of the Xingyi and TJQ classics suggest that by training with awareness, these concepts and energies will become manifest and understandable ?....for ordinary, practicle and reasonably well working-paradigm purposes?

I have to try and keep it basic and practical (not very clever see?)

[twocircles13]

Actually, the original character is the same as the "new" or the simplified character without the rice radical: 气

The radicals were added to distinguish different characters from each other or to simply suggest the proper pronunciation.

Yes, and wind, pot, water, boiling, and rice all have qi.

origami_itto wrote:
I am very much am interested in learning what others think of Qi.

Here is my understanding. YMMV!

Modern people are usually baffled by the very notion of qi. It is talked about as if it were a thing, so they look for a thing. But, qi doesn’t fit that conceptual framework.

Qi is cyclical. It is not the cycle itself. It is what causes the cycle.

Let’s start with the wind. It’s calm. Qi increases, and there is a breeze. Qi continues to increase until it is a strong wind. Qi declines and the wind starts to calm. Qi dissipates and the wind is calm, and so on.

So, what was qi? It was the thing that caused the wind to blow. What caused the wind to blow? In the modern world, we would look for a scientific answer. However, in the ancient Chinese world, being able to substitute qi for the causative factor was sufficient to solve many engineering, medical, agricultural, meteorological, and other problems.

Let’s take cooking rice. Uncooked rice is hard. Cooking makes it soft. If you leave the rice out, it becomes hard again. Why? Qi is a sufficient answer without having to know what made it hard or soft.

For a more complex example using rice again, rice is planted. It grows. Why does it grow? Modern people would look at photosynthesis, etc., but to understand the process, we only need to understand that qi is increasing. If we leave it in the ground, it will mature, Then, its qi will decline, and it will die. But, it still has qi until it rots and decays into the gases, dust, and water from which it was formed.

If we harvest the rice, we could talk about the transfer of its qi to the consumer. What does it transfer? Modern people might talk about carbohydrate, protein, minerals, vitamins, phytonutrients, etc. But, ancient people knew it was transferring something, but they did not know what, so they substituted qi for those things.

We would get more complex, and Chinese scholars did. Yin and Yang are involved. It can become really convoluted, and a discussion can jump from one type of qi to another and back and forth. But, these simple ideas are at the heart of it.

It’s a really brilliant system. It allowed China to create a wondrous and advanced civilization.

In taijiquan, “experts” have talked about all sorts of qi, bone qi, tendon qi, skin qi, breath qi, and on and on. We could discuss those processes. These all follow the same pattern as the wind, however, we might use the words open and release, ascend and descend, appear and vanish, substantial and insubstantial, and so on.

Before you get a headache or dismiss this notion as too alien. Try it out. Anytime you see the word qi, look for the wind pattern, a wave pattern, the creation-destruction cycle, and so on, and see if you can find the unknowns behind it, and you will understand the pattern and the qi.

[windwalker]

what is that one can do with this understanding, that they can do with out it ?

With out having done what was outlined in another thread.

For the record, I have done or can do about 85-90% of what is being demonstrated and taught 50% or more.

A good way to approach understanding.


In my teachers group, understanding was through doing ...
We had some visitors at one time, a friend I invited from the US, he brought his student.
His student a little skeptical of what was being demoed...

An accounting of what happened written in Chinese by a student, translated by google...

By Michelle Gong

Tai Chi master Peter from Hawaii, USA was one of the tourists I guided in 2008. One day in 2012, probably in April, I received an email from him saying that he and a friend came to Beijing for Tai Chi exchanges and needed a tour guide.


" That day, June 1st, according to Peter's plan, we met up with his American friend David at KFC next to Mudanyuan Hotel. While eating breakfast, I heard David talk about his master, he has been with him for 10 years. I thought to myself, I have been learning Tai Chi in Beijing for so long, and I have never seen such a person. They will wave their hands, and others will fall. What kind of Beijing old man has deceived this David?

Many Chinese are themselves, skeptical of such demos, used by some teachers for their own interest in seeking fame or fortune. Not the same with my teacher, who actively sought anonymity throughout his lifetime.

My curiosity made me urge them to eat faster. Along with Peter is his apprentice, a huge American policeman Bill, who has just retired.

On Children's Day in June, the roses in Beitucheng Park are blooming beautifully. I was not in the mood to look at flowers that day. As soon as I arrived at the training ground, my intuition told me that the old man who stretched his hamstring on the iron frame and looked at us was Master Zhang : the friendly smile of the old man next door, and his back was very straight.

He shook hands warmly with all the visitors. There are about 3 to 40 practitioners, and they all look at us with smiles, and there are also talents who can translate.

Bill, had questioned some of what he saw, and was wondering if Master Zhang, would let him feel it..something due to many reasons he did not normally do.


He asked Bill to stand by the pine tree next to the iron frame, about 5 meters away from him. I was next to Bill, and asked me to put my left hand on Bill's right chest. He asked Bill to stand by the pine tree next to the iron frame we used to stretch our legs., about 5 meters away from him.

I was next to Bill, and let my left hand go up, and put it on Bill's right chest.

He drew a circle in the air pointing at Bill's chest with one hand, my left hand felt like it was being circled by a hot electric current, but I was fine, Bill frowned where he was covering his chest. Later, the old man rubbed chest and said that he would be fine after a night's sleep. I asked him the next day and he said it didn't hurt anymore. This is the famous empty energy of Mr. Zhang, which transmits energy through the air."



The first time Peter and Bill his student had met my teacher, their interaction, funny and interesting...
Bill a big Hawaiian retired policeman... Actually, Bill almost passed out from the experience.

Shared as an example of how we arrived at an understanding of "Qi" and what "understanding"
meant to those there.

There were arguments by those who could not do it, trying explain to each what they felt was happing or the theories used to explain it.
Sometimes becoming very heated in the process. as here

For those who could do it, or were close to being able to
The theory used to "explain" it didn't matter so much,
not something really talked about,

they could do it

Their questions more along the lines of practices to either deepen or make what they did more functional...

[Appledog]

In this thread here in particular and the other I'm not really interested in talking about Qi cultivation so much as nailing down what someone actually means when they use the word Qi. What is the difference between a westerner, a modern Chinese, and a Chinese from the 1800s.

Two circles posted a brilliant summation of that conceptual framework in the pot of rice thread. Definitely go check it out.

If you can get THAT then it's worth starting to talk about all the manifestations of "Qi" that we work with in Taijiquan. It isn't just one thing, one substance, one concept, one framework. It's something that everything has but it's not the same for everything.

I'm pretty sure thats right. Its what people mean when they say qi, vs. what the classics mean or what they intend us to think when they say qi that I find to be different. I do not beleive that the classics, meant -- or that there is any use in meaning, for example -- a unification of the universe -- vitality -- or say peace and love. As TC says there are many kinds...

Modern people are usually baffled by the very notion of qi. It is talked about as if it were a thing, so they look for a thing. But, qi doesn’t fit that conceptual framework.

Qi is cyclical. It is not the cycle itself. It is what causes the cycle.

Let’s start with the wind. It’s calm. Qi increases, and there is a breeze. Qi continues to increase until it is a strong wind. Qi declines and the wind starts to calm. Qi dissipates and the wind is calm, and so on.

So, what was qi? It was the thing that caused the wind to blow. What caused the wind to blow? In the modern world, we would look for a scientific answer. However, in the ancient Chinese world, being able to substitute qi for the causative factor was sufficient to solve many engineering, medical, agricultural, meteorological, and other problems. [...]

In taijiquan, “experts” have talked about all sorts of qi, bone qi, tendon qi, skin qi, breath qi, and on and on. We could discuss those processes. These all follow the same pattern as the wind, however, we might use the words open and release, ascend and descend, appear and vanish, substantial and insubstantial, and so on.

Before you get a headache or dismiss this notion as too alien. Try it out. Anytime you see the word qi, look for the wind pattern, a wave pattern, the creation-destruction cycle, and so on, and see if you can find the unknowns behind it, and you will understand the pattern and the qi.

I think the point is expressed nicely by "...look for the wind pattern." But the thing where he says "these all follow" I must disagree with. And thats fine, if we didn't focus on what we disagree others on there would be nothing to bitch about on RSF

So when we talk about cultivating it, cultivating what? The life force, the movement potential, what is it?

Windwalker asked a good question. What can one do with this knowledge that one cannot do without? I think the most obvious use is as a check-light. When the light is on, you know you are doing it correctly. So when you get qi-feelings at a beginner level (such as warmth, tingling, etc). you know you're doing something right. Beyond that I dunno. So basically "it's tingling? that's how you know it's working!" Like the commercial. I think that is the most common and useful thing people mean when they say qi; the sensation you get when you do the moves according to the principles. What I am saying is that this intangible feeling in the mind is actually real and it is not an illusion. Science be damned.

[Taste of Death]

I can't think of a pot of steaming rice without thinking about Joe Shishido's rice-sniffing No. 3 yakuza in Seijin Suzuki's masterpiece Branded to Kill.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVCqq6ewP5Y

[origami_itto]

In this thread here in particular and the other I'm not really interested in talking about Qi cultivation so much as nailing down what someone actually means when they use the word Qi. What is the difference between a westerner, a modern Chinese, and a Chinese from the 1800s.

Two circles posted a brilliant summation of that conceptual framework in the pot of rice thread. Definitely go check it out.

If you can get THAT then it's worth starting to talk about all the manifestations of "Qi" that we work with in Taijiquan. It isn't just one thing, one substance, one concept, one framework. It's something that everything has but it's not the same for everything.

I'm pretty sure thats right. Its what people mean when they say qi, vs. what the classics mean or what they intend us to think when they say qi that I find to be different. I do not beleive that the classics, meant -- or that there is any use in meaning, for example -- a unification of the universe -- vitality -- or say peace and love. As TC says there are many kinds...

I don't know what "a unification of the universe" or "peace and love" have to do with anything. The only thing emotions have to do with things at this stage of the conversation is that intense emotion can cause physical illness. Peace and love at a metaphysical level are another matter entirely that is best not to venture into at this point. It cuts through the illusion of separateness, basically.

Modern people are usually baffled by the very notion of qi. It is talked about as if it were a thing, so they look for a thing. But, qi doesn’t fit that conceptual framework.

Qi is cyclical. It is not the cycle itself. It is what causes the cycle.

Let’s start with the wind. It’s calm. Qi increases, and there is a breeze. Qi continues to increase until it is a strong wind. Qi declines and the wind starts to calm. Qi dissipates and the wind is calm, and so on.

So, what was qi? It was the thing that caused the wind to blow. What caused the wind to blow? In the modern world, we would look for a scientific answer. However, in the ancient Chinese world, being able to substitute qi for the causative factor was sufficient to solve many engineering, medical, agricultural, meteorological, and other problems. [...]

In taijiquan, “experts” have talked about all sorts of qi, bone qi, tendon qi, skin qi, breath qi, and on and on. We could discuss those processes. These all follow the same pattern as the wind, however, we might use the words open and release, ascend and descend, appear and vanish, substantial and insubstantial, and so on.

Before you get a headache or dismiss this notion as too alien. Try it out. Anytime you see the word qi, look for the wind pattern, a wave pattern, the creation-destruction cycle, and so on, and see if you can find the unknowns behind it, and you will understand the pattern and the qi.

I think the point is expressed nicely by "...look for the wind pattern." But the thing where he says "these all follow" I must disagree with. And thats fine, if we didn't focus on what we disagree others on there would be nothing to bitch about on RSF

The pattern is taiji. That's the base teaching. We go around attaching Yin and Yang to things as if that were the job of it, applying the label.
But what is the point of the label? To help us understand how to interact with it.

Understand Taiji, see it in yourself, in your mind and in your body and in your movement. In your interaction with your environment, in your opinion of yourself, in your interaction with other people, in the weather, in the wind.

Like we can see that cold air falls and hot air rises, pulling the cold air across the land, but not everybody can see the potential of putting a windmill there till somebody else shows them.

So when we talk about cultivating it, cultivating what? The life force, the movement potential, what is it?

Windwalker asked a good question. What can one do with this knowledge that one cannot do without? I think the most obvious use is as a check-light. When the light is on, you know you are doing it correctly. So when you get qi-feelings at a beginner level (such as warmth, tingling, etc). you know you're doing something right. Beyond that I dunno. So basically "it's tingling? that's how you know it's working!" Like the commercial. I think that is the most common and useful thing people mean when they say qi; the sensation you get when you do the moves according to the principles. What I am saying is that this intangible feeling in the mind is actually real and it is not an illusion. Science be damned.

You can put a windmill up and catch the Qi flowing naturally between two places, then you have a lot of time you used to spend milling grain to use on more fulfilling pursuits.

[everything]

still not really sure what the question is. what are people's definitions of what they mean by "Qi" in the IMA context? i think that's it? people who can show they can do things don't really seem to give good definitions or labels. they seem to give some descriptions of aspects that match my (and lots of people's) subjective sensations and experiences. so it seems "good enough". someone (Dmitri maybe?) said we are doing "internal bodybuilding". So we can have "enough" qi to "power" jin, a sort of "internal" not based on strong muscle contraction "strength". So we are building the hard-to-describe energy that powers that strength. Physicists say energy=capacity to do work. So whether we do "internal" or "external" strength building, we can bring more energy from mitochondria or qi or whatever to apply some strength. Maybe those vague definitions are good enough.

[Bao]

still not really sure what the question is.

Me neither

what are people's definitions of what they mean by "Qi" in the IMA context?

IMO "qi" belongs to the neigong part, the practice. It's a concept you can use to measure your progress and the quality of your practice. But it's not useful in a martial arts context. IMA doesn't "use" qi, it uses "jin". Qi is something that is always there, it's just a consequence of doing certain things correct. Jin is what you use, jin the expression of what you have achieved through your internal practice.

Qi is always internal, it always follow the yi, it's nothing you focus on or need to care about. It's something naturally developed by practice, but qi is also the input, it's the gasoline, the energy which makes the motor running. The jin is the output, the external expression of the motor, like the acceleration, speed and strength of a vehicle.

So you practice neigong to develop skill of movement and certain body mechanics. This practice builds the qi necessary. The external expression of putting it in use is jin.

So you don't need to even have heard of qi. Just practice and learn how to use what you've learned.

[Taste of Death]

In Han Shi Yi Quan we treat the way the art is expressed as a phenomenon. We don't use the word "chi" although we all have our various opinions about what it is and what it means just like in this thread. To use the Taiji Classics as an example, the words only make sense once one can do what is described. And if one can do it then one does not need to read the Classics.

In dantien-focused training like Mike Sigman and Dan Harden teach, it is indeed like "internal bodybuilding", but what I practice is a form of mental projection. My mind moves the chi (energy) and it escapes like steam through my fingertips. It is true that there is a warm tingling sensation but I create that with my mind. When beginning this type of training we all trick ourselves into thinking we feel something. But that's OK. Better than feeling nothing, which happens to most people. When one can use it in a martial context one develops a deeper understanding but it is still beyond total comprehension.

Trigger warning: Here comes an analogy. In the Werner Herzog film Encounters at the End of the World about people who live in Antarctica working mostly for the Raytheon corporation, one of the first encounters Herzog has is with a man who says about the community there, "We are all part-time workers and full-time travelers." And he talks about his grandmother reading Homer to him as a boy and that the "journey of the mind" is what he is most engaged in. Another one of the men studies icebergs. The biggest iceberg's total mass is equal to the size of Great Britain but most of it is underwater. It cannot be fully perceived. They arrive by helicopter, flying above the iceberg, but he says they can never be "above it." It is always above them. He is in awe of it.

We try to understand what "chi" is and how to use it martially. But it's not meant to be understood. It is above us even though it is within us. So, how do we harness something like that? We don't do it by trying to explain it although I, too, am participating in this discussion. We have to let it happen. Using the steaming rice analogy (oh boy, here we go again), we make rice. Simple enough. We wash the rice several times in cold water to remove any debris, put it in a pot or rice cooker with an appropriate amount of water to suit our tastes or needs, and then as it cooks it boils and steam is produced. We, as chefs, don't produce the steam. The cooking does that.

With my training, my mind tells my body we are going to do some yiquan. The first order of business is to initiate the fingertip feeling. Then everything I do, whether it's standing meditation or the five fists or whatever, is led by the fingertip feeling. My mind directs the movement sometimes depending on what or how I'm practicing (particularly solo training) but mostly I just let it happen. I have a soft focus but am hyper-aware at the same time. My sense of perception is heightened. Think of a basketball player bringing the ball up the court with the defense hanging back. No pressure. But if there is 00.03.0 on the clock and their team is down by 1-3 points and they are inbounding the ball, every player on the court is in a hyper-aware state but they have to maintain control so they don't overreact to the situation.

The microcosmic orbit was mentioned earlier in this thread. The mind moves the "chi" up and down the front and back channels. Sam Tam always says, "Sink the chi." It is simple and we make it complicated by overanalyzing it. But if one cannot yet move the "chi" one must search for a way to do that and in CIMA we do a poor job of verbally explaining it. Everyone understands and learns things differently. These arts are passed from hand to hand. Many Chinese accomplished martial artists were illiterate but they learned these methods by training them diligently. And, yes, some people never get it while their training partners do. That is an unfortunate reality. Everything we do in CIMA, every single movement, can be pressure-tested in some way. I can demonstrate on my training partners with or without chi/internal. When one understands the difference between the two modalities just like with hard/soft or fast/slow then one can spend their training time cultivating that feeling. If it feels like steam escaping to you, great. If it's like water or energy or a light, that's great, too. I can hit someone with beng chuan with nothing internal going on, then utilizing what I have been training put into it and there is a marked difference. But how it works is still a mystery to me. But so is breathing. I just do it.

[everything]

really helpful posts.

Usually I say neijia could be drawn like a Venn diagram. You do your neigong. You do your MA. The intersection is interesting.

But I think we can fake-quantify it to make some things more clear. We don't need to "define" energy but we can fake-measure it, conceptually. With no cultivation, of course we all have qi, but we're only doing something like 90% MA and 10% neijia "stuff" (or whatever is natural for that person). Suppose you get good at judo (placeholder for any MA of your choice) such that you get closer to using "4 oz" but you are still basically just good at judo. You are better at this intersection, but you didn't cultivate your neigong side. Or suppose you are "good" at qigong, but you never learn any MA. With some lessons you could learn to do, say, 90% neijia "stuff" and 10% MA. You'd still be a beginner at MA. Let's say YLC did "30% neijia stuff and 70% MA stuff". Let's say that's the "formula" and right balance. Why would you want to have these fake-ratios be suboptimal? It's like if you need to do a movement that requires a lot of conventional strength. If you deadlift 400 (or whatever you consider strong) and squat 300 and bench 200, it'll probably be easier to do your MA technique that needs conventional strength. This seems like the same thing (except the strength is completely different). Why wouldn't we want to do that? Especially if we claim interest in IMA.

In the beginning, sure, forming my hand in a way, say to hold a "qi ball" at first makes me start to feel something. So it's sort of outside-in. Your teacher says to fangsong both for MA technique learning and for the qigong aspect. Later, those sensations seem to "guide" your ability to fangsong. So it's more from the inside-out. Eventually maybe you get to that 30/70 ratio (these are all made up numbers) so you have some "strength" and some "MA techniques" that complement each other. As a beginner, I found eventually I could do some baby-level integration like this, and it feels more "effortless" and qualitatively different than something like a perfectly timed throw. If my intent goes downward, it's not just align fascia with gravity or some such crap. It's like there is "hydraulic power" that makes my "go downward" more powerful. It's very easy to use "downward power" in only an "external" way imo. If it's more powerful, why wouldn't we want to do that?

If we say "this internal stuff is crap, but I believe in judo" and we want to be like Fedor, we still need to do all that conventional strength/power stuff he does. Hit big tires with heavy hammers, run, whatnot. Whatever that "ratio" of massive power and great MA techniques he does, we should likely do that. Sometimes he won't do a textbook effortless judo throw. He'll add some muscular power. No problem. Life isn't perfect. Not enough strength training or not enough MA training = the formula didn't optimize.

[Bao]

Sam Tam always says, "Sink the chi."

I've heard several of his students as well as other who says "now I sink the qi" before pushing someone away. OOH, it doesn't make sense. You should always keep your qi sunk. "Sinking the qi" is the standard mode in all IMA. This is the foundation of any IMA shenfa/body method and is what keeps your "motor" running. Without "sinking the qi" (relaxing mind, body and breath while keeping the integrity of balance and alignment), there's no jin, no shenfa, no nothing.

OTOH, I think they mean the same as what Li Yaxuan and others spoke about as fajin. He says when you fajin, you should take a deep breath and relax your whole body deeply while keeping your focus. But then again, he also speaks about that you should always relax as much as possible and keep sunk.

"Sink the qi" is abstract. How do you do it? Li Yaxuan explains how to do it in a practical way that students can understand, follow and do the same.

I really don't like teachers who keep to the abstract and don't explain the "how to". They only confuse their students and sometimes, intentionally or unintentionally, as perpetual beginners. Instructions should make things easier for the student to replicate, not to confuse them, or irritate them.

So, IMHO, "qi" can be useful in a theoretical context, explaining things or be used when there's a lack of words to explain things. But in the latter case, there is mostly still a consensus between teacher and student what is meant.

However, Qi is completely useless when it comes to the "how to", explaining who to do things and why.

[origami_itto]

Sam Tam always says, "Sink the chi."

I've heard several of his students as well as other who says "now I sink the qi" before pushing someone away. OOH, it doesn't make sense. You should always keep your qi sunk. "Sinking the qi" is the standard mode in all IMA. This is the foundation of any IMA shenfa/body method and is what keeps your "motor" running. Without "sinking the qi" (relaxing mind, body and breath while keeping the integrity of balance and alignment), there's no jin, no shenfa, no nothing.

"The qi sinks to the dantien" as in the 10 important points and "now I sink the qi" are two different instructions talking about different things. What makes things confusing is all of the conflation of different types of qi.

Here, specifically, I'll say that the qi to the dantien is about the breath as in air. The action of breathing and the center of energetic focus goes to the dantien.
"Now I sink" I understand as a specific release of muscles to drop and direct the potential energy of the mass of the body. (Not just "bending the knees", it's not always visible) I hesitate to get specific because like everything else it seems to get deeper and deeper.

You can always sink more because you're always rising. The funny thing about taijiquan is that you release coming and going.

OTOH, I think they mean the same as what Li Yaxuan and others spoke about as fajin. He says when you fajin, you should take a deep breath and relax your whole body deeply while keeping your focus. But then again, he also speaks about that you should always relax as much as possible and keep sunk.

"Sink the qi" is abstract. How do you do it? Li Yaxuan explains how to do it in a practical way that students can understand, follow and do the same.

Is it though? In my experience it is a definite, concrete, palpable action. Again, though, conflation confuses.

I really don't like teachers who keep to the abstract and don't explain the "how to". They only confuse their students and sometimes, intentionally or unintentionally, as perpetual beginners. Instructions should make things easier for the student to replicate, not to confuse them, or irritate them.

So, IMHO, "qi" can be useful in a theoretical context, explaining things or be used when there's a lack of words to explain things. But in the latter case, there is mostly still a consensus between teacher and student what is meant.

However, Qi is completely useless when it comes to the "how to", explaining who to do things and why.

I just disagree completely here.

If you understand the yin and a yang of a thing you can comprehend the qi of the thing. If you can comprehend the qi of the thing there is a chance you can influence or harness it.

You. What is you? The pineal gland? The mind? The state of the signal running through your circuitry? Your fingers and toes? Your clothes? Your house, town, country,
planet, galaxy? The universe?

Where does YOU stop and everything else begin?

Sense data seems so immediate and important but is that really us? Maybe we're just a ghost pushing buttons in the dark and watching a screen to see what happens.

In that case most of what I consider to be "me" is just stuff they gave me when I got here that I've been figuring out how to use. A big messy mass of wires from my control room. I had to plug in and attach buttons and levers. I had to work out routines to make sense of what it's telling me and to get it to do what I want. Most of that activity is take care of itself so I can keep the lights on but I digress.

I am a spiritual being having a mostly inconvenient physical experience.

Sometimes, though, I'm my clothes. When I'm looking extra fly or kind of scrubby that definitely impacts my sense of self.
Sometimes, my family, an insult to my wife is like spitting in my eye.
Or maybe my art, my club, my country, my favorite musician, my sportsball team of choice that definitely isn't just because it's where my Dad was born and grew up watching.

Sometimes those feel a lot like "me".

I'm not trying to be vague or mystical here.

The question of cultivating Qi has a simple answer. Drink your Ovaltine and practice Taijiquan.

The question of using Qi depends on what you are aware of and what you have control of.

Qi follows awareness, move your awareness inside your sphere of influence and perception and observe the movement of the Qi and the activity that follows it.

Identify the Yin and the Yang and the subtle manifestations inside you and around you and use them to harmonize with and influence these processes.

It's not "imagination", it's awareness and observation. If we start imagining, then we start making things up. This is part of why the good teachers tell you where to look not what to see.

In my experience, what begins as moving awareness becomes moving physical energy. Nothing mystical or magical about it, just laying down tracks, strengthening neural connections, nourishing tissues.

What I personally found challenging to grok at first was that the physical energy isn't innately tied to the mass of a moving object, if that makes any sense.

When you're hit a certain way, it's like a hard wind. You don't feel the impact so much as you feel a rush of energy crashing in and lifting you. It's not slamming one object into another. The body at this point is like an energy delivery device, not an impact weapon.

I don't know if this tracks with anybody else's understanding or not or if it's useful for you or not.

TL;DR there's buttons, knobs, switches, and wires running all through you and around you.

[everything]

“Downward” is a good example.

- relax downward. Muscles fascia blah blah blah.
- sink Qi. Your subjective sensation of this. But not just qi as in breath. Or the above muscle stuff.
- do both. In form at first.

Teachers seem to say do the first so there is something students can latch onto. Outside In.

Some students (seems to be mainly non MA people) are probably more open and talented and can do the second more immediately.

Now can we do all of it? Standing? Form? Push hands?

What happens if you first make the “qi ball”? Then do “cloud hands”? Then “sink qi”? What if you try hard to ignore the muscle stuff? Assume you got that part down.

[origami_itto]

I don't know anything about any qi ball, sounds like visualization aid.

You tell me. What happens?