Qi - A Pot of Rice

[Bao]

"The qi sinks to the dantien" as in the 10 important points and "now I sink the qi" are two different instructions talking about different things. What makes things confusing is all of the conflation of different types of qi.

They don't separate two different instructions, they just say "sink the qi" or "now I sink the qi". "Qi sinks to the Dantian" is irrelevant. The first statement shows they don't understand the original phrase the "qi sinks to the dantian".

I just disagree completely here.

If you understand the yin and a yang of a thing you can comprehend the qi of the thing. If you can comprehend the qi of the thing there is a chance you can influence or harness it.

Then we can just agree to disagree. How you or I interpret "I sink the qi" is irrelevant. You have practiced Tai Chi for many years, you do have different reference points. Most people have no. I was merely speaking generally about the non-value of vague, abstract instructions that don't explain how to do something.

Have no idea where your or anyone's interpretation of "I" comes into the discussion. The issue is about what some teachers say that they do without explaining anything.

[wayne hansen]

If you have good instruction and practice hard these things are not a question
As all the talks of history are
The most eradite musical criticism will not produce one pleasing note

[windwalker]

How Do I Get (More) Chi / Qi?

Who knew ?

Should mention in China, there was not a lot of explanation

There was a lot of doing......

While one may not agree with what is said,,,what was done could not be done with out it

got Qi

[everything]

The way I understand sink Qi is literal b/c that’s what it feels like.

Like “something” sinks.

I suggest to separate neigong from MA and then once you try both it’s “neijia”.

Then there isn’t any weird confusion of “oh they mean fascia and gravity and blah”.

If we want to do that we can go to judo. No problem.

I don’t know how to “get more” qi.

When you do form, it seems to feel “fuller”.

As if the “something” has “gathered”.

But some say qi as in energy is just there. You aren’t “getting more”.

[Dmitri]

It simply doesn't exist, as a concrete thing. It's a nebulous term that's only very mildly helpful in actual practice, and can be easily discarded (replaced by more clear, specific instruction) without any detriment to the learning process whatsoever. Beyond that - it's nothing more than a philosophical, sometimes near-religious, concept that induces incessant amounts of mental masturbation among the willing adepts. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

[everything]

funny that the something-that-is-nothing is so central. but as i like to say, fedor doesn't need any of this

[origami_itto]

Fedor has his own conceptualization of what he is doing. We're also, when discussing him, looking at one very limited aspect of life and the expression of the results of his training.

What, again, are we cultivating through these practices? Maybe just shut up and do the exercise works.

You do em enough you start to notice things.

But if you invest in imagination, you hide it.

Or so I've been told

[Dmitri]

funny that the something-that-is-nothing is so central.

You mean, like "god"? Or maybe political affiliations? Or the Kardashians?

[Bao]

funny that the something-that-is-nothing is so central.

Just like the western concept of "energy". Energy doesn't exist on its own, it's a concept used to measure the effect between objects.

Because of the lack of a better terminology people use the concept of "qi" to measure the effect or progress of training, or the effect of something you do.

[everything]

that's why "energy" does seem like a good translation, yes. "capacity to do work". not a satisfying definition, but we basically understand it. but "qigong" requires some experience and well, work.

[everything]

it seems like yi and xin would be even more difficult to define.

can we define "consciousness"? can we "measure" it? are there EM waves we can detect? are yi and xin part of that? if qi follows your yi, is qi therefore part of your consciousness? how about if qi and yi do something so fast and "automatic", it happened "outside" your consciousness? my wife switched to a different car with one of those annoying button parking brakes. we still sometimes find our left foot "automatically" goes to push the pedal, not really even "conscious" of this movement. since there is "nothing", we cannot define it, use instruments to detect it, it must not be real or exist. consciousness and yi must not exist. but do we really need some really good definition of any of these to do daily life, MA, IMA, even qigong(non-MA)?

[origami_itto]

The chinese terms, particularly as MA jargon, don't line up neatly with the theories of western psychology.

We need to stop thinking about these in terms of a priori absolute truth of existence concepts. They are just a particular framework a particular culture used to describe their understanding at the time.

So we take the idea of yi leading qi leading jin and we can consider that in parallel with modern kinesthesiology and use them to inform our understanding of each other. Not consider them as competing for superiority.

Understanding the terms as they apply first to the practice is perhaps the most important, if any of it is for your purposes, then maybe how that concept fits into the broader culture for a bit of a deeper understanding, again, of the words and concepts, not the truth of the thing. The map is not the territory.

Then you can look at how the territory is represented on different maps, right? And maybe get an idea of why your foot keeps moving to the wrong pedal. There are pretty good explanations for it.

They can even recreate on a screen images you construct in your mind now. It's amazing what you can find out when you don't decide to stop looking and thinking about it.

[everything]

particular time

more "mapping" attempt in our timeline/culture. same guy in the other video.


he uses some of the same terms we've been using like "energy" and "information". maybe one kind of "information" is the IMA type we like - an "information" where person A somehow "pushes" person B. but others are for calming, energizing, psychological, medical, whatever. his speculation about having something in the future that could "map" to explain the foot thing (or other things like psychological states) is interesting.

[Bao]

it seems like yi and xin would be even more difficult to define.

Different styles and schools interpret and utilize "yi" in different ways, but "xin" or "heart-mind" is actually a quite simple and down-to-earth concept, though it's still very misunderstood and mostly used completely wrong. It's not anywhere near "mind-power", but has more to do with an emotional judgment. To "use xin" actually means more that you should put passion in what you do than anything else.

Literally the character “xin” or 心 means heart. The standardised version seen today is a simplification of a much older character that was originally a picture of a human heart. The problem for us when we try to understand what the word xin actually means in a Chinese language context, is that it is mostly translated to English as “mind”.

...

Sometimes though, the Chinese “Xin” is translated to “heart-mind”, meaning the emotional mind. My own teacher in Chinese Philosophy, who kindly gave this very lazy student a very high degree for some strange reason, explained this relationship as that the brain and heart are very much connected in Chinese thought. He meant that the heart and emotion is actually what all thoughts reflects.

....

But how then is the word “mind” actually used? I mean, it is said that you must use mind in your Taijiquan practice. (“to use xin” is something different from “to use Yi” as in “to use Yi instead of Li“.) So what does this mean? I will tell you this: it’s much more simple than you might want to believe. It’s not about thinking, and it’s not about developing any mind-power or “thinking-energy” as a Qigong teacher explained the processes in what he did. Just as all of these strange mystical sounding words as qi, yin-yang and everything else that is usually mystified, “xin” is also something used daily, a common word in the Chinese language.

My wife who works with chemistry recently said that why she is better to find out what is wrong with an instrument or why she usually find when something is wrong before many of her colleagues, is because she use “xin” in her work. What she meant was really the same as the English expression to use the heart, that she puts her heart in her work. She is focused on her tasks, does things with awareness and cares about everything she does. This is to “use xin”.

What it is meant to “use xin” in taijiquan is the same. It means that you cannot mechanically do the form or any exercise just because you should do it. You must put in a lot of heart in your practice, you need to be aware and pay attention on what you do, “take care” of what you do. You need to be mindful, take your practice very seriously and examine yourself carefully, and reflect on how well you carry and embody the Taiji principles in every inch of your movement, in your stillness and in your breath. Otherwise, if you don’t put a lot of heart in what you do, it will all become superficial practice and not even good Taijiquan.

Your Taijiquan should always be done this way. To “use Xin” is thus something commonsensical and practical, though there is also a much more philosophical way of describing the “heart-mind”....

...

Excerpt from "Thoughts on Tai Chi", Full article:

https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... taijiquan/

[D_Glenn]

The problem within the IMA is that because of a fundamental problem of people outside of lineages, writing down oral teachings, combined with the issue of teachers allowing or only writing down a character in order to protect a secret, that we now have nearly everyone in the IMA using this character 氣 Qì - (your flames, under a pot of boiling rice producing steam)

When it should actually be this character 炁 Qì

Looking at the character: 炁 Qì there is the modified character for 'Fire' (火 Huo): 灬 beneath the character 旡 Jì (choke; which is actually the reverse image of 欠 Qiàn (to breathe)) which means to figuratively choke out the flames and just leave the hot coals burning.

Building a solid Dantian is like building a brick furnace. Inside the furnace you can eliminate the flames, just leaving hot coals, and build up vastly greater temperatures than with just wood and open flames.

It’s naturally confusing when you think it’s the same character, within the same text that is talking about cultivation, or making progress in an IMA practice, when it’s actually two separate things. Finding or figuring out the context can help. Or even just straight up inserting the character and term 炁 Qì in place of 氣 Qì will begin to make a lot more sense in the understanding of CIMA.


Ordinary people who don’t practice any Daoist or Buddhist cultivation practices only have 氣 Qì and they’re just wasting away the wood into flames, water into steam and rice into crap. And repeating the next day. Always on the edge of just enough, and easily falling into a deficit and then having to try to catch up.

People who practice Daoist or Buddhist cultivation practices will begin to gather up 炁 Qì, and can begin to build up a surplus and not just stuck in the endless cycle of creating and then burning all they have created. At first this will only fill the Dantian, but eventually it could fill up your whole body. Strive to make the whole body into a furnace, where (to make the analogy fit) you could smoke enough meat to eat on for a year.


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