Origins of Taijiquan

[robert]

If so, then wouldn't 'Origins of Taijiquan' actually include a lot of individual conceptual and practical origins (maybe such as i.e:'The arts of patrolling the Silk-road without getting worn-out or killed') that find a confluence in the stated methodology of the 19th Century Yang family art and its stated evolution from a Chen discipline of that era which could have had several similar 'competitor disciplines' but, for all intents and purposes, 'that art' is the origional Taijiquan?

If so, then to seek a further-back origins would actually be to seek the origins of 'the individual things and concepts' of that art ?

In China it seems to be acknowledged that the body mechanics of taijiquan come from daoyin. This is true of xinyi/xingyi and bagua as well. The origins of daoyin are another question. Currently it's traced back at least to Mawangdui which is dated around 186 BCE. That is not the origin of taijiquan, just an element of it.

[yeniseri]

my initial reaction is that Chan Yanxi teaching something other than his family martial art is unlikely. There is no indication that Chen Yanxi studied primarily with his father, Gengyun, and there is significant indication that Gengyun was gone from the Chen Village running the family branch caravan escort service and off to war fighting against the Taiping Rebellion.
So, I appreciate the assertion, but even if true, I’m not sure how it enhances our knowledge of the history of taijiquan.
,

From my perspective, experience and knowledge (limited of course, due to my lack and inability to read Pǔtōnghuà ( 普通話; 普通话), it is a sometime natural practice to study origin
roots of a 'modern system' as a way to assess and perhaps, pick up things that previous generation were not aware about, and/or historical patterns that one may understabnd and appreciate more,
what that tradition delivers as insight, into the current training methodologies.

t has been reported that a few of Chen Xiaojia (Small Frame) relatives, (originally from Chenjiaogou who left the village and went
to study a Tongbei routine that resembled chenshitaijiquan. It does not mean that the practiioner wanted to beocome a Tongbei 'expert' or demean the art but a practice worthy of study for its own sake!
It does not demean chenshitaijiquan. It enhances it providingg we have the respectful vision of each man learning his art based on his/her own capability. That is the Dao as I understand it. Nothing to do or undo
but if one sees something worthy of 'change' and it is useful, incorporate it. I do that im my few associations with taijiquan student of the past. If a student has problems with x posture then I change to
reflect the capabilty of the student as long as the individual can assess and see the new change(s). The story related that Chen Liqing was the one who researched Tonbeiquan!

Even Zhaobao taijiquan has attempted to usurp the Chen Family method (Chenjiagou) though it has incorporated other influences when in fact the central figure of Zhaobao originally came from Chen village

[GrahamB]

6H or “liuhe” is a very common Chinese expression. It just means something that stretches out through all directions, the liuhe bridge, the liuhe pagoda etc. The IMA 6 harmony theory comes from Xingyiquan and was adapted in the 20th century by the Chen clan and by Sun Lutang. The meaning is not the same as the general and widespread name.

Whole body coordination is certainly older than modern Taijiquan, but it was not called “6 harmonies”.

Oh dear.

Bao, I'd start by looking up when the name "XingYiQuan" was first used.

Second I'd look at what the name of the art was before it was called Xingyiquan. Hint: it has the words "six harmony" in it.

Third, I'd look at when the 6H theory was applied to martial arts - hint, it was a lot earlier than the 20th Century.

You're welcome.

[Doc Stier]

6H or “liuhe” is a very common Chinese expression. It just means something that stretches out through all directions, the liuhe bridge, the liuhe pagoda etc. The IMA 6 harmony theory comes from Xingyiquan and was adapted in the 20th century by the Chen clan and by Sun Lutang. The meaning is not the same as the general and widespread name.

Whole body coordination is certainly older than modern Taijiquan, but it was not called “6 harmonies”.

Oh dear.

Bao, I'd start by looking up when the name "XingYiQuan" was first used.

Second I'd look at what the name of the art was before it was called Xingyiquan. Hint: it has the words "six harmony" in it.

Third, I'd look at when the 6H theory was applied to martial arts - hint, it was a lot earlier than the 20th Century.

You're welcome.

Meh! Details. Details.

[johnwang]

https://newmediamax.com/article/1ikz8e4fg2886.html

太極拳的初創者陳王廷共創編了一至五路十二勢，炮捶和長拳十個套路，五傳至陳長興、陳有本時，陳家溝開始由博返約，將十三勢一至五路合為陳式太極拳一路，炮捶成為陳式太極拳二路，而長拳則已很少人練習

Taiji founder Chen Wang-Ting created 1 - 5 Roads 12 Shi, Pao Chui and long fist 10 roads, Chen Village combined

- 1 - 5 Roads 13 Shi into Chen Taiji form 1st road.
- Pao Chui into Cheng Taiji form 2nd road.

Nobody trained the long fist form any more.

What do you make of this article?

Does this Xing Yi Liu He training looks like Taiji training?

[yeniseri]

That type of training has always been (mor or less) the training of all CMA!
Liuhebafa is the foundation of All CMA but this has detiorated for the past few centuries specifically with the advent of 'modern weapons'.

[Bao]

Oh dear.

Bao, I'd start by looking up when the name "XingYiQuan" was first used.

Second I'd look at what the name of the art was before it was called Xingyiquan. Hint: it has the words "six harmony" in it.

Oh dear...

As many other arts, Xinyi Liuhe has "liuhe" in it. Can you prove that the "liuhe" in the original name had anything to do with the same 6H theory as in XYQ? Again, the original meaning of "liuhe" in Chinese culture is not the same as in Xingyiquan, it means that something stretches out in all directions.

Look up when the XYQ 6H theory was first described in writing.

Also, look up the meaning of Liuhe in Liuhe Bafa, the 6H are all internal, which means that what is meant in LHBF is not the same as in "the technology behind Taijiquan." or behind XYQ.

"The technology" behind TJQ is NOT the liuhe. The Liuhe wasn't adapted to Taijiquan until the early 20th century.

I'd look at when the 6H theory was applied to martial arts - hint, it was a lot earlier than the 20th Century.

I never claimed that the XYQ liuhe theory was from the 20th century. I said it TJQ adapted liuhe theory from XYQ in the 20th century.

Also, the "6H theory" was never "applied" to martial arts. The 6H theory as in XYQ is a purely martial arts invention. That 6H theory has never existed outside of martial arts. And I have not found any proof that it comes from another martial art than XYQ or possibly from XYLH.

[GrahamB]

Can you prove that the "liuhe" in the original name had anything to do with the same 6H theory as in XYQ? Again, the original meaning of "liuhe" in Chinese culture is not the same as in Xingyiquan, it means that something stretches out in all directions.

That's hilarious! You really don't think that all those people naming 6 harmony marital arts were doing it after the 6 harmonies concept commonly used in Chinese marital arts? OK then. Got you.

Look up when the XYQ 6H theory was first described in writing.

Sigh. Sure. I'll do your research for you... in regard to marital arts it is the - 10 Thesis of Yue Fei

https://www.nei-jia.org/hsingichuanclassics.htm

Number 6. There it is. If it's used in regards to something else that's cool, but I fail to see how that has any relevance to a discussion of martial arts?

Look, this is so obvious it's not even worth debating. It's just common knowledge amongst Chinese martial artists!

Let me just quote some basics for you that too 2 seconds to find with Google:

"in earlier China, many martial arts used the six-harmonies method of movement that is the hallmark of the so-called “internal martial arts”. Even today you can find a goodly number of old, pedigreed Chinese martial arts that contain the term “Liu He” (“six harmonies”) in their full title, but over time many arts have devolved to less pure usage of the use of qi, jin, and dantian, regardless of the name they use and the classics that they espouse. Today, because body movement must be completely re-patterned, only a small number of arts attempt to use the full six-harmonies movement principles and of course not everyone practicing those arts fully complies with traditional requirements.

Many of the admonitions that are included in the “Taijiquan Classics” from the Yang-style Taijiquan are actually just repetitions of the old lore about six-harmonies movement and are not necessarily specific to just Taijiquan. However, Taijiquan is one of the arts that use the full six-harmonies movement, even though they normally use the reeling-silk (chansijin) term. "

[windwalker]

Johnwang wrote:
Does this Xing Yi Liu He training looks like Taiji training?

In many aspects yes, good clip...

However it may not develop the same aspects that "some" taiji practices focus on...

[johnwang]

Johnwang wrote:
Does this Xing Yi Liu He training looks like Taiji training?

In many aspects yes, good clip...

However it may not develop the same aspects that "some" taiji practices focus on...

What's the difference between a Taiji guy punches on his opponent's face than a XYLH guy punches on his opponent's face?

[windwalker]

Johnwang wrote:
Does this Xing Yi Liu He training looks like Taiji training?

In many aspects yes, good clip...

However it may not develop the same aspects that "some" taiji practices focus on...

What's the difference between a Taiji guy punches on his opponent's face than a XYLH guy punches on his opponent's face?

https://i.postimg.cc/NjghqPFk/fist-meets-face.jpg

what does it mean when someone deletes their post, maybe understanding the reaction ?
why bother

The taiji guy depending on practice does not need a punch to hit the opponent's face

all of it not related to this thread...

[origami_itto]

Johnwang wrote:
Does this Xing Yi Liu He training looks like Taiji training?

In many aspects yes, good clip...

However it may not develop the same aspects that "some" taiji practices focus on...

What's the difference between a Taiji guy punches on his opponent's face than a XYLH guy punches on his opponent's face?

Don't know about the XYLH but with Taiji depends on the guy

1. “Yang Lu Chan’s fajin was empty, leaving the opponent not knowing what happened or how the jin was released. His jin was so perfected as to be called mysterious.”

2. “Yang Ban Hou’s fajin was SUDDEN, like lightning without rain, emerging from nowhere with the sounds of «Pa!». One fajin would send the opponent out many zhang ( 1 zhang = 3.3 meters). His jin would leave people in pain and injured.”

3. “Yang Jien Hou would use the lightest of touch, his sticking energy was so high that people could not disconnect, then they would be suddenly released like an arrow from a bow.”

4. “Yang Shao Hou’s jin was ever spontaneous and song to the extreme, fast beyond compare. His body skills were mysterious and treacherous like a ghost appearing and reappearing, fooling his opponents so they would have no idea what was happening or how to defend themselves until they had fallen to his jin before even knowing it.”

5. “Yang Chen Fu’s fajin was powerful with great sudden dantien force. Before he would fa there was a deep intention; when he would fa it was like Guang Gong taking off a head with a single stroke…”

6. “Wu Hui Chuan used song elastic energy preferring to use just a little jin to send his opponents out, he did not lose face as a student of the Yang family. His students could produce long jin, both song and sunk, not bad.”


7. “Cui Yi Shi was skilled in fajin both song and sunk. Before he would fa he would inhale one time and use the elastic jin. His jin was song and springy, propelling his opponent away. On release the jin would cause the opponent to release a sound from the mouth as the wind was knocked from them. This is the kung fu of the qi striking the qi.”

8. “Li Xiang Yan in his youth studied and trained deeply in long fist, after which he followed Yang Feng Hou taijiquan and achieved great gong li. He was dedicated to study and practice and achieved jin that was full and hard, penetrating deep inside the opponent. Later he bowed to Yang Chen Fu as his teacher.”

9. “Dong Ying Jie liked to use Rou Cou Jin, pressuring his opponent from side to side, forward and back until they fell defeated.”

10. “Zheng Man Qing would use light touch and clean sticking energy, entering close with his body before firing the opponent out with jin. He was small but had kung fu and courage and was skilled at penetrating the defense of his opponents.”

11. “Tian Zhao Lin’s kung fu was soft and penetrating, breaking his opponents as they were knocked down, amongst other skills.”

12. “I myself Li Ya Xuan use many strange changes, making it difficult to follow. The jin is fast like lighting. I don’t like to just play sticking and circling.”

[twocircles13]

my initial reaction is that Chan Yanxi teaching something other than his family martial art is unlikely. There is no indication that Chen Yanxi studied primarily with his father, Gengyun, and there is significant indication that Gengyun was gone from the Chen Village running the family branch caravan escort service and off to war fighting against the Taiping Rebellion.
So, I appreciate the assertion, but even if true, I’m not sure how it enhances our knowledge of the history of taijiquan.
,

From my perspective, experience and knowledge (limited of course, due to my lack and inability to read Pǔtōnghuà ( 普通話; 普通话), it is a sometime natural practice to study origin
roots of a 'modern system' as a way to assess and perhaps, pick up things that previous generation were not aware about, and/or historical patterns that one may understabnd and appreciate more,
what that tradition delivers as insight, into the current training methodologies.

t has been reported that a few of Chen Xiaojia (Small Frame) relatives, (originally from Chenjiaogou who left the village and went
to study a Tongbei routine that resembled chenshitaijiquan. It does not mean that the practiioner wanted to beocome a Tongbei 'expert' or demean the art but a practice worthy of study for its own sake!
It does not demean chenshitaijiquan. It enhances it providingg we have the respectful vision of each man learning his art based on his/her own capability. That is the Dao as I understand it. Nothing to do or undo
but if one sees something worthy of 'change' and it is useful, incorporate it. I do that im my few associations with taijiquan student of the past. If a student has problems with x posture then I change to
reflect the capabilty of the student as long as the individual can assess and see the new change(s). The story related that Chen Liqing was the one who researched Tonbeiquan!

Even Zhaobao taijiquan has attempted to usurp the Chen Family method (Chenjiagou) though it has incorporated other influences when in fact the central figure of Zhaobao originally came from Chen village

@yeniseri I think you misconstrue my meaning a bit. I am in agreement with you on all counts about the value of historical background. I would go further to add that I think it enhances our understanding of an art and taijiquan, in particular, to understand the context in which it developed. However, I look at all evidence with a critical eye. There are lots of claims. I am looking for verifiable, accurate evidence.

One of my taijiquan lineages comes through Du Yuzi, a student of Chen Yanxi (abt. 1827- abt. 1914), so I am always interested with anything to do with him. I have done my best to chronicle his life. So, it is of some interest to me that he may have called his art for some reason "Liuhe Tongbeiquan". Why can only be speculation at this point.

While there is evidence that tongbeiquan may be a contributing martial artist the development of taijiquan, I have not seen any evidence that the Chen family as a group ever called their family art Tongbeiquan.

In another post in this thread, I summarize a source that discusses Hongdong Tongbeiquan from Shanxi. The researchers and Chen Liqing, a small frame master, believe that this martial art was taken during the reign of the Qianlong Emperor (1736-1795) by a Chen Family member fleeing murder charges to Shanxi, where he took on a new identity and renamed and taught his martial art.They hail this find as the long lost Chen 108 longfist that ceased to be practiced by the Chen family in the early to mid 1800s. This is a good disguise for taijiquan, since tongbeiquan probably dates back to the Song Dynasty (960–1279). With a 500 year old history there were many variations in the 1700s. And, as alluded to, there are some Tongbei-like movements in taijiquan, so it probably was not a hard sell. Further, he taught, not the Thirteen Postures set that all of our taijiquan forms are based on. He taught the Chen 108 Longfist set that is thought to have been based on Song Emperor’s Longfist (Taizu Changquan) that dates at least to the Yuan Dynasty (1279–1368).

The form that Liqing and her students learned and believe to be Chen 108 Longfist can be seen at this link. The video will not embed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5xE_dwjGA

Now, if you know of another small frame taijiquan group that learned tongbeiquan because is was similar to taijiquan, I would be very interested in seeing this source

So, while the Chen Liuhe Tongbeiquan is of interest to someone like me interested in Chen Yanxi. it does not seem to be that relevant to the development of taijiquan.

[twocircles13]

https://newmediamax.com/article/1ikz8e4fg2886.html

太極拳的初創者陳王廷共創編了一至五路十二勢，炮捶和長拳十個套路，五傳至陳長興、陳有本時，陳家溝開始由博返約，將十三勢一至五路合為陳式太極拳一路，炮捶成為陳式太極拳二路，而長拳則已很少人練習

Taiji founder Chen Wang-Ting created 1 - 5 Roads 12 Shi, Pao Chui and long fist 10 roads, Chen Village combined

- 1 - 5 Roads 13 Shi into Chen Taiji form 1st road.
- Pao Chui into Cheng Taiji form 2nd road.

Nobody trained the long fist form any more.

What do you make of this article?

Does this Xing Yi Liu He training looks like Taiji training?

...Only a bit superficially. His external structure is generally much different, which means it would follow that his internal actions would be different also. There are a few movements that are similar to taijiquan, but only enough to make a very weak connection, if any.

[greytowhite]

https://newmediamax.com/article/1ikz8e4fg2886.html

太極拳的初創者陳王廷共創編了一至五路十二勢，炮捶和長拳十個套路，五傳至陳長興、陳有本時，陳家溝開始由博返約，將十三勢一至五路合為陳式太極拳一路，炮捶成為陳式太極拳二路，而長拳則已很少人練習

Taiji founder Chen Wang-Ting created 1 - 5 Roads 12 Shi, Pao Chui and long fist 10 roads, Chen Village combined

- 1 - 5 Roads 13 Shi into Chen Taiji form 1st road.
- Pao Chui into Cheng Taiji form 2nd road.

Nobody trained the long fist form any more.

What do you make of this article?

Does this Xing Yi Liu He training looks like Taiji training?

There's a very specific form they're referring to - I had to pay $35 to see 2 different angles of it on DVD. There's a couple of examples on YouTube from Yao Fuchun's grand student that looks... questionable. Andrea Falk talked about the Taiji Changquan set in her specific book - it does not look like that. It looks like a proto-Yang style with a lot of Xingyi 12 Animals type movement.