What is the point of silk reeling - to you - ?

[Appledog]

That no matter where you touch I can vanish and you can't harm me with weapons. And that I'm so smooth tension travels through me and you can't break me. Plus having more power. And some other stuff too.

Tao te ching 21, imo.

[robert]

邁步如貓行。運動如抽絲。
Step like a cat and move energy as if drawing silk.

【解】太極拳行走。大多足跟先著地。如貓行之輕靈。含有蓄神之意。練拳運勁如抽絲。均勻不斷。運內勁時。自下由腿順轉而上。從胳膊順擰而出。如將一把生絲順扭。反放之。卽倒轉由上將勁收回身內。此卽為纏絲勁。
The Taiji Boxing footwork usually touches down first with the heel. It has the lightness and nimbleness of a cat’s steps, having an intention of storing spirit. When practicing the solo set, move the energy like drawing out silk so that the thread does not break. When wielding internal power, it arcs upward from the legs and coils outward through the arms. It is like grabbing a strand of raw silk and spooling it around your fingers. Reversing the direction then sends the energy from above back into your body. This describes what is known as “silk reeling” energy.

The "moving silk" has nothing to do with how the arms are moving in my opinion. The energy can be present or absent, still, or move with no change in the external body's appearance, but it can be felt.

I don't know what you mean when you say jin is absent. If a person is not using jin doesn't that imply they are using brute strength? DYJ writes When wielding internal power (neijin), it arcs upward from the legs and coils outward through the arms.
Later DYJ comments on the idea that jin is rooted in the foot, issues through the leg, is directed at the waist and is expressed in the fingers.

其根在腳。發於腿。主宰於腰。形於手指。由腳而腿、而腰、總須完整一氣。向前退後。乃能得機得勢。
Starting from the foot, issue through the leg, directing it at the waist, and expressing it at the fingers. From foot through leg through waist, it must be a fully continuous process, and whether advancing or retreating, you will then catch the opportunity and gain the upper hand.

【解】練法須上下相隨。勁自足跟起。行於腿。達於腰。由脊而膊行於手指。周身一氣。用時進前退後。上至手。下至步。無處不得力。其勁乃不可限量。
「根」者。立身之根基卽馬步。「腰」者。人體上下相接連之部位也。「指」者。卽兩手之指也。
When practicing, it is necessary for the upper body and lower to coordinate with each other. Power (jin) initiates from the heel, goes through the leg to the waist, and from the spine then goes through the arms to the fingers.

Are you saying that you disagree with this?

[origami_itto]

I don't disagree at all.

What I'm saying is you can put your arm in ward off and have it be full of tension, empty, or filled with peng jin.

It won't look much different to most people.

[robert]

I don't disagree at all.

What I'm saying is you can put your arm in ward off and have it be full of tension, empty, or filled with peng jin.

It won't look much different to most people.

OK, I get it.

[greytowhite]

To me the point of silk reeling is to provide basic Taiji body method. I feel that silk reeling, 8 postures holding and testing, combined with 5 directions, and then push hands are a far more efficient way to relay body method than forcing someone through dozens of postures without any idea of their purpose.

[twocircles13]

Thanks for giving an answer twocircles13 -

Rotation is simple enough to understand. Not to do, but to understand. But rotation without elastic connection.... is just rotation. I can rotate my forearm in isolation from my body at the elbow, or my whole arm at the shoulder. It's rotation yes, but is that silk reeling?

But if I move my whole body while I do it, yet still rotate the forearm 'from the elbow'... - is that silk reeling?

I don't think it is. I think it's the winding of the body as a unit from the dantien through the legs to the fingers that makes it silk reeling.

I'd be interested in your take on it.

You are correct. Random rotation is not silk reeling. There is more to it. Rotation is a necessary but not a sufficient condition to define chansi jin.

From your "Small Circles and Loops" blog, Mike’s second comment used the right words,

In silkreeling movement, the major idea is to connect the power from the lower body and the ground’s solidity to the upper body.

As you point out, this is a "whole body power." The training is about building connections and coordinating the body, and there is still more to it.

A picture paints a thousand words. Here’s my senior brother, Ronnie Yee, teaching one of the most basic exercises that trains silk reeling, Twisting Towel.

https://youtu.be/6f212-J6hcg

There are a couple of optical illusions here. The hand that appears to move forward is actually moving toward the body as the elbow rotates in and down. The other hand appears to move backward but actually moves up, out and away from the body, although Ronnie de-emphasizes that hand at this stage of instruction. This seems to be silly frame of reference nonsense, until you start looking at the physics of the movement, especially when an external force enters the system.

There is more to it.

Technically, Ronnie’s legs should be rotating too. However, in this stationary stance, the legs cannot rotate, but as the hips rotate, that force is going into the legs and being stored in the connective tissues (sinews) of the legs. You might almost be able to get the feeling of this if you watch his legs. If his legs were more still, more energy would be stored. In this exercise, that energy is also being leaked out in several ways.

This brings up origami_itto’s observation.

邁步如貓行。運動如抽絲。
Step like a cat and move energy as if drawing silk.

【解】太極拳行走。大多足跟先著地。如貓行之輕靈。含有蓄神之意。練拳運勁如抽絲。均勻不斷。運內勁時。自下由腿順轉而上。從胳膊順擰而出。如將一把生絲順扭。反放之。卽倒轉由上將勁收回身內。此卽為纏絲勁。
The Taiji Boxing footwork usually touches down first with the heel. It has the lightness and nimbleness of a cat’s steps, having an intention of storing spirit. When practicing the solo set, move the energy like drawing out silk so that the thread does not break. When wielding internal power, it arcs upward from the legs and coils outward through the arms. It is like grabbing a strand of raw silk and spooling it around your fingers. Reversing the direction then sends the energy from above back into your body. This describes what is known as “silk reeling” energy.

The "moving silk" has nothing to do with how the arms are moving in my opinion. The energy can be present or absent, still, or move with no change in the external body's appearance, but it can be felt.

Great quote. Dong Yingjie also wrote,

Large circles lead to small circles, and then small circles lead to no circle.

This is a common training method utilized by many instructional traditions in taijiquan. It points out that our rotations can become hidden, not that we stop rotating. In those hidden parts of the rotation, energy is stored.

And, there’s more to it.

“When wielding internal power" [with an opponent], in order for the majority of our chansi jin to transfer to our opponent, a center of rotation close to the contact point must be fixed. This is just physics.

In the Twisting Towel video, Ronnie fixes his central axis for training.

And there is still more, but this may help those seeking to start to "establish a baseline" for understanding silk reeling.

[cloudz]

it's lovely and poetic, but what do stepping as if near a cliff edge or moving jin as if spinning silk have to do with the elastic quality ?
there's two ways to go about such things in life. you can hold your hands up to an 'error of judgement', or dig a hole trying to justify yourself.

Peng jin is said to have an elastic quality. Some people describe it as being like an inflated ball. The elastic quality is an aspect of jin. When I stand next to a cliff I become hyper aware of my balance. When you employ peng jin you don't want to fall over, that's maintaining one's balance. Maintaining one's balance is an aspect of jin. Spinning silk, also known as reeling silk and drawing silk, refers to the body being connected and maintaining that connection continuously. The connected movement needs to be unbroken. This is part of how a person trains jin. If a person trains correctly they work out tension and knots in the soft tissues of the body. Over time the body becomes elastic.

This is all really nice and I appreciate the thought you put into these kind of expositions.

Sometimes we just have miscommunications; what i was initially alluding to - hands up I probably phrased it really badly - is that there was no direct Chinese character or equivalent translation that is commonly used in Chinese martial arts circles. TCC or otherwise.

I could just as well talk about "song" being depicted as snow on a pine tree in the martial neigong classic and come up with the same conception. But what I mean is there is no direct equivalent word (character) for "elastic" used that I am aware of. Maybe they didn't have one in the MA jargon - I don't know. And at this point in my journey I'm 100% not bothered. There's so many jins in the wider tcma already, it's practically anal.

Yours is all a wider and broader interpretation - which again is what I alluded to being the case.
I know why we use the western terminology of elasticity.

I was thinking out loud - you could say - of why I had never really come across a direct equivalent of it in terms of TRANSLATION.

You have pretty much confirmed what I thought (out loud), with nice juicy cherries on top.
So thanks again.

[Giles]

Bottom line here: "One part of the body moves, everything moves"

Silk reeling is a certain type of movement. But, of course, you can also establish the requisite connections within the body when not moving (externally). If the connections are there, then when you move and maintain these connections, it's silk reeling.

For instance, take any move from any tai chi system where an observer can see the arms and torso and maybe the waist/hips moving, but the legs and feet are 'staying still'. If the practitioner, consciously or unconsciously, is using the legs (and possibly hips) as a kind of static tripod on which the 'interesting' movements are mounted, then it's not silk reeling. If the feet, legs etc. are also involved in the movement, resonating with the movement or even helping to drive the movement, then it's silk reeling.
Comparable to what origami_itto here remarks about peng: the raised round arm can be stiff or empty or peng - a casual observer wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but there's a huge practical and also testable difference.

[twocircles13]

Bottom line here: "One part of the body moves, everything moves"

Silk reeling is a certain type of movement. But, of course, you can also establish the requisite connections within the body when not moving (externally). If the connections are there, then when you move and maintain these connections, it's silk reeling.

For instance, take any move from any tai chi system where an observer can see the arms and torso and maybe the waist/hips moving, but the legs and feet are 'staying still'. If the practitioner, consciously or unconsciously, is using the legs (and possibly hips) as a kind of static tripod on which the 'interesting' movements are mounted, then it's not silk reeling. If the feet, legs etc. are also involved in the movement, resonating with the movement or even helping to drive the movement, then it's silk reeling.
Comparable to what origami_itto here remarks about peng: the raised round arm can be stiff or empty or peng - a casual observer wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but there's a huge practical and also testable difference.

Exactly. Great summary and illustration.

And, there is more....

[Giles]

And, there is more....

Yes indeed. There always is. But then it's no longer a summary.

[cloudz]

If you are interested, here’s the explanation of these statements from my training. The classics, for the most part, were written for students who had already received training. The classics, often in poetic form were reminder of what the student(s) had been taught. I am sure sometimes, although the students had been taught certain skills, they had not mastered them, so the classics served as reminders of salient points. They were not a complete how-to guide.

This skill can be learned in a few hours, but is takes a couple of years of practice to refine it.

Step as if near a cliff edge. Move jin as if spinning silk.

We step in to close with the opponent. The taijiquan stepping method will usually “break” the opponent’s structure (root). As we step in, we perform a series of rotations. If the step, did not break his structure, the rotations of the “spinning silk” surely will. This is called, “Bringing the opponent to the cliff’s edge.” At this point, with their root broken, we are actually holding them up. If we move a little, they would fall down.

My teacher illustrated this by putting a book flat on a table. He’d put a single finger holding one end and move the book toward the edge of the table until the book was beyond its center of gravity. But, with his finger still holding the book to the table, it would not fall. When he removed his finger, the book would fall. This is the basic idea of “Bringing the opponent to the edge of a cliff.”

With notable exceptions, few opponents will realize they are in danger of falling down. The finger is still on the book. They feel stable.

]Store jin like drawing a bow. Issue jin like loosing an arrow

Because the opponent still feels stable, they will usually try to attack in some way. We again use the rotations of our “spinning silk” to redirect and store the force of their attacks. This is drawing the bow, and like a bow, we use their force to store potential energy. We allow the potential energy to store until it reaches our desired threshold, just like a bow.

The Chinese bow is drawn with a thumb ring. There were various designs, but the most common in the Qing Dynasty was a simple cylinder, which had a rounded edge. The string was hooked on the end of the thumb ring and held in place by a finger. To "loose the arrow," you simply let go, and the bowstring slips off the thumb ring.

That is the lesson from the poem. All you have to do is let go. What happens next depends on what and how much energy was stored and on the context of the encounter. In a training situation, we usually do not let the energy build up too much, and we often catch our opponent so they don’t fall, perhaps not the best habit. In competition, we let them fall, flip, fly, whatever they are going to do. In self-defense, we finish with additional techniques designed to focus the resultant force to cause an injury as energy changes from potential to kinetic.

This usually happens in les than a second. But, by letting the energy leak out you can draw things out for a few minutes.

I don't really have anything useful to add or say, so I'll just say thank you.

[cloudz]

That whole mnemonic classics learning is interesting. The CTH lineage has it too.

Two circles, I take it you are Practical method Chen going by the video you posted. I know his school does a fair bit competition wise and he shows nice techniques etc.

Personally I've always found his videos hard to follow in some ways, the jargon and so on. But I do like visuals of such things. Do you have some good examples of either techniques demonstrated according to your kind of explanation. Competition ones from your school to see and compare in real time and against resistance ?

Here is an intro into Spiral Body from Martial Body training for anyone interested.

[wayne hansen]

Nice video
CTH and CWK systems both have silk reeling sets
One starts off with wrist circles positive and negative and progresses through the joints
There is also the 24 noi gung
As well as that I learnt 3 forms
The square
The circular
The circular continuous
A form I have seen no one else do even though I have seen some of the moves from it done in the circular form

[GrahamB]

That whole mnemonic classics learning is interesting. The CTH lineage has it too.

Two circles, I take it you are Practical method Chen going by the video you posted. I know his school does a fair bit competition wise and he shows nice techniques etc.

Personally I've always found his videos hard to follow in some ways, the jargon and so on. But I do like visuals of such things. Do you have some good examples of either techniques demonstrated according to your kind of explanation. Competition ones from your school to see and compare in real time and against resistance ?

Here is an intro into Spiral Body from Martial Body training for anyone interested.

I'm probably going to regret posting this....given my history with the hardcore Brexit headbanger, but anyway, YOLO, right?

I had to stop watching that video half way through because I I just don't agree with what he's saying. Each to their own though, so I'm not out to convince anyone of anything.

Personally, I don't think spiral movement is the 'apex' of human movement, and that we find it 'easy' to move in straight lines. That's coming from the wrong place.

Like BruceP says with his use of everyday actions, like throwing a snowball, as teaching moments, (I may be misquoting him so appologies, but that's what I think he's saying) Spiral movement is the way a human moves naturally if we stop interfering with it. Kids move this way naturally. Adults can end up in very robotic styles of movement, but usually it has to be trained in to be like that... if you just pick something up, like a cup of tea, and move it to your mouth, the whole action is spiral. To make it linear you'd have to really try hard. And you'd probably spill your tea.

Also, in jiujitsu everybody moves in spirals and we don't need to separately train spiral movement, it just happens because it's natural. I filmed this the other day after class because somebody asked a question about it, but look at all the spirals going on in the movement - it's the way the human body moves naturally.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv_5zf8uHsd/

You don't need to learn spiral movement, you need to unlearn whatever it is that's in the way of spiral movement.


Anyway, back to your regular programming...

[Bao]

...it's the way the human body moves naturally.

You don't need to learn spiral movement, you need to unlearn whatever it is that's in the way of spiral movement.

QFT