The Internal Pugilism Of Gurjot Singh

[cloudz]

You two are madly in love! Each one thinking higher of themselves than the other party yet no one having the grace of just letting the other's words dissipate into silence.

Have done that before, and he found me on FB and did his little bait and switch thing. we actually had a nice chat and was cool I think.. Not that we weren't as we had put things to bed. I don't want to hold grudges, believe me. It got me thinking about RSF again and as I'm on holiday I have more free time for FB and social media like this. The point is I don't personally dislike him, I don't know him personally. When I said I didn't like him; he more or less encapsulates what I don't like about parts of martial arts, and elements in the tai chi community. At least some aspects of his attitude at times and some of the things he says. Mainly it comes across as a kind of snobbery.. In terms of personality, you may have a point in so much I think we may be fairly alike; so maybe we are having some weird love hate thing going on.. Ask him ? He's been "on me" lately wanting to understand my understanding. I find that idea odd, because it's an impossibility. But I actually do understand where he's coming from; trying to glean knowledge from others. So It's not like I want to carry on being mean or something.. not on purpose. But I do find some of his tact annoying and I've explained why.

We all have plenty of books on our shelf I imagine; the Yang family qigong has been published for years. I have a copy I have not opened in years.. I have done so much "internal work" over the years I barely think about what I'm doing when I'm doing it anymore - I mean obviously sometimes each session I run my checklist, get into the feeling and I'm there.. Or some exercise I haven't done for a while and so on. Like everything really. Also having had various teachers, my practice has changed and progressed and I now use a specific Neigong as my main one and shared where it can be found. As well as other cool internal exercises to boot. Its martial related and it's great. What's not to like?

If I wanted to teach it or write about it it would take me some effort in the sense that I like to do things justice as far as possible. But it's already there in print! Rather than write it off the bat because some guy asked me off the internet. It's quite a few pages long in the book! It's just odd to me. There's tons of books by names in IMA that have written these things down for us already, loads of teachers teaching it. My understanding is neither here not there as far as I'm concerned.. It's for me to know and share when and where I see fit. Not demanded for by someone else.. I'm sorry but it pisses me off. When I refuse I get put downs and insults in return. If you or anyone condones that then you just don't really get it for whatever reason. But whatever I don't want to make a mountain out of what is really a little molehill. I just hopes he hears what i'm saying and accepts it. And drops the condescension, because i didn't start that but I do know how to carry things on if I want to.. with bells and whistles for effect. Anyway, Have you not been entertained? Of course you have. We aim to please.

That's all. Let the silence wash over us.

[Quigga]

Who am I to tell grown people how to communicate? Have at it!

[origami_itto]

You two are madly in love! Each one thinking higher of themselves than the other party yet no one having the grace of just letting the other's words dissipate into silence.

Have done that before, and he found me on FB and did his little bait and switch thing.

JFC, I don't care about you. I didn't "find" you. I didn't "bait and switch" you. I'm certainly not trying to "glean knowledge" from you as I don't see any evidence that you possess anything I am interested in, honestly. I am nothing if not consistent in my tone and goals. If you show up to talk, let's talk, but all of this bullshit about personally attacking, criticizing, and defaming me serves ZERO purpose. I don't even like to respond to it, but at this point, HOW THE FUCK TO MAKE IT END???

You commented on my comment on a thread in the Fajin Project and started with your attitude, identifying yourself as "knowing me from RSF" but playing coy about who you were until I found your rortoscoped video of the bag work. You started talking about Neigong. I asked you what neigong and internal meant to you. You referred me to "some posts on RSF" like I'm going to hit the search like a fucking PhD research student for your nuggets of wisdom. I repeated the same question here when you brought the topic up and you decided to throw some kind of fit. Why you respond for a simple request for information about your views on our common interest with hostility and personal attacks, I will never know.

It's okay to just say you don't know, man. No need for the anger to cover for it.

I repeat. I do not care about you. I reached out during your hiatus because it seemed like you got your feelings hurt when I started making fun of your ninja magic so you ghosted the site for a few months, and I don't like to leave that kind of karma out there. I am only responding here because, once again, you've started attacking and criticizing me and trying to defame my character instead of offering any useful or interesting commentary or content on the arts themselves, which is all I care about. I don't talk shit about you or your studies. It wouldn't be hard, man. You look pretty silly sometimes, particularly when you try to be clever.

I get that you have nothing to teach me but patience and acceptance at this point, just keep my name out of your mouth and don't engage me. I will gladly ignore you.

I get you have something to prove or you want your practice to be somehow publicly "legitimized" or whatever. Again... I repeat... I do not care. I'm glad you train. More people should. Was just asking for more information about what you do to clarify what you mean, since you're posting all over about it.

I have never tried to shine brighter by unscrewing someone else's lightbulb, bud. Don't know why you are so obsessed with me. You can fuck off with it, though.

I wish I knew why all these yahoos get so offended by my existence.

Seriously though... don't talk to me, Ninja Wizard man, I got nothing further to say to you that won't make you cry.

[Appledog]

gongfu is a much more interesting discussion

Origami I am a little confused with this thread. If you help me understand maybe that would help. I heard you were a student of Alex Dong. Do you go there as a student or did you just go to some seminars and start to follow his teaching? Do you have a close enough relationship with him to ask questions like these to him (qi, neigong, gongfu, etc)? I am wondering if you are starting to align more with what he is teaching, as his stuff is very good. We could talk about that. I also want to ask, why Alex Dong? What made you like him as a teacher? Thanks.

[origami_itto]

gongfu is a much more interesting discussion

Origami I am a little confused with this thread. If you help me understand maybe that would help. I heard you were a student of Alex Dong. Do you go there as a student or did you just go to some seminars and start to follow his teaching? Do you have a close enough relationship with him to ask questions like these to him (qi, neigong, gongfu, etc)? I am wondering if you are starting to align more with what he is teaching, as his stuff is very good. We could talk about that. I also want to ask, why Alex Dong? What made you like him as a teacher? Thanks.

I'm not on this site searching for answers I don't have. I'm just here to chat about stuff.

When I ask "What do you mean by internal" I'm not trying to figure out for myself what "Internal" is. I'm asking what that person means when they say it, because as a term it's been highly abused and misconstrued. I'm interested in comparing perspectives.

When, for example, somebody tells me that to them neigong involves no physical exercises whatsoever it contradicts what I've learned, so I'm curious as to what they are talking about and would like to know more about their perspective, as sometimes it DOES shed a new light on my own.

Alex and I talk almost daily about whatever comes to mind, usually related specifically to his books and other workshop material. I attend at least one workshop each year in person, have private lessons whenever he is visiting his family in Orlando, and take online classes and workshops frequently.

I've been working on his simplified form, and nothing else (except the qigong, of course) for a little over two years now.

Why?

I was taking Adam Mizner's course and playing push hands in the park every weekend in Austin.

A guy started coming, Vietnam Vet, said he was taking a free tai chi class at the VA but they weren't allowed to do any partner work so he came out to the park to get some four hands practice.

I am a veteran so I figured I'd go check out the class. The lady Jane that runs the class is a former nurse that teaches like four or five classes a week, for free. She's in her 70s. I started going down occasionally for tai chi and yoga practice to get out of the house.

So she build this 1500 sq ft steel building on her property to use as a Tai Chi Studio, at the urging (so she says) of Dong Zhen Chen. It was completed and he came to visit and deliver a weekend workshop with his wife and Alex.

She asked me to attend to help beef up the numbers, so I did. I learned the saber form and started teaching that (sequence at least) for free to vets on Wednesday nights out of the Studio (can't bring weapons to the VA). I was struck by some of the similarities in the teaching between the Dong and Mizner material, but was invested in Mizner at the time.

Dong Zhen Chen retired after that visit, so Alex has been coming the last three years. I'd gotten some of the park players to come out to the push hands portion of his workshops, again, mainly to help boost the numbers. I wasn't overly impressed with what I judged the skill of his students was.

So at the 1st push hands workshop he made a couple suggestions/corrections that revolutionized my game and form. Couldn't stop his students from pushing me out. I started taking notice. Started getting deeper into the books. Actually READ the workshop notes, finally. Started learning the simplified form. I'd lost my taste for Mizner's organization so it made sense to try a different flavor.

I'm now completely convinced, I do not argue one bit against anything he's published or taught regarding Taijiquan. Everything he's told or shown me has been immediately useful and understandable and has improved what I'm doing.

I don't know if I mentioned in the fundamental qigong thread that I attended another workshop recently with a well-regarded instructor and he spent three days on exercises that are basically just a subset of the first fundamental qigong, but presented and practiced in a less accessible fashion.

And like, I know I'm not that good, I get pushed, it happens. But working with him, he's one of maybe four or five people I've met that can work with me just above my level in a way that gives me something to work against but yet doesn't let me get the upper hand or go too hard against me. It's hard to explain, but it's the butter zone of push hands training, like he can keep me working right outside my comfort zone but not TOO far. "Now I'm gonna push you with a lot of energy but not a lot of skill because that's what you're going to run into a lot"

Owning my feet on contact, conversation via ting jin, just... every time I'm lucky enough to meet up I feel like I'm able to get more.

He is not big on theory, so I'm really excited to see what he has to say in this zoom workshop about Qi on the 20th. (info in the seminars, etc chat)

He's been training formally since he as 5 years old in a well documented lineage with unquestionable authenticity. Dong Ying Jie's martial arts pedigree and accomplishments are bonafide and verifiable, as is his Hao style teacher Li Baoyu. That's not to be discounted.

The last thing I'll say is I have ALL the books, Sun Lu Tang/Cartmell, all the yang lineage masters, my own teachers, the dougl wiles, Yang Jwing Ming's stuff, a ton of books, love em. As far as Taijiquan theory and practice goes, I could throw out every single one except his Workshop notes and not miss a thing. That book is THAT good.

In a nutshell, I follow his teaching because it seems to me to be the most authentic and potent system of Taijiquan I have access to

[origami_itto]

The funny thing is that I, and I don't like to name drop, regularly message with well known and respected players privately and in private groups.

Like there are at least 20 other people I could pump for information before I went begging George for scraps.

[cloudz]

You two are madly in love! Each one thinking higher of themselves than the other party yet no one having the grace of just letting the other's words dissipate into silence.

Have done that before, and he found me on FB and did his little bait and switch thing.

JFC, I don't care about you. I didn't "find" you. I didn't "bait and switch" you. I'm certainly not trying to "glean knowledge" from you as I don't see any evidence that you possess anything I am interested in, honestly. I am nothing if not consistent in my tone and goals. If you show up to talk, let's talk, but all of this bullshit about personally attacking, criticizing, and defaming me serves ZERO purpose. I don't even like to respond to it, but at this point, HOW THE FUCK TO MAKE IT END???

You commented on my comment on a thread in the Fajin Project and started with your attitude, identifying yourself as "knowing me from RSF" but playing coy about who you were until I found your rortoscoped video of the bag work. You started talking about Neigong. I asked you what neigong and internal meant to you. You referred me to "some posts on RSF" like I'm going to hit the search like a fucking PhD research student for your nuggets of wisdom. I repeated the same question here when you brought the topic up and you decided to throw some kind of fit. Why you respond for a simple request for information about your views on our common interest with hostility and personal attacks, I will never know.

It's okay to just say you don't know, man. No need for the anger to cover for it.

I repeat. I do not care about you. I reached out during your hiatus because it seemed like you got your feelings hurt when I started making fun of your ninja magic so you ghosted the site for a few months, and I don't like to leave that kind of karma out there. I am only responding here because, once again, you've started attacking and criticizing me and trying to defame my character instead of offering any useful or interesting commentary or content on the arts themselves, which is all I care about. I don't talk shit about you or your studies. It wouldn't be hard, man. You look pretty silly sometimes, particularly when you try to be clever.

I get that you have nothing to teach me but patience and acceptance at this point, just keep my name out of your mouth and don't engage me. I will gladly ignore you.

I get you have something to prove or you want your practice to be somehow publicly "legitimized" or whatever. Again... I repeat... I do not care. I'm glad you train. More people should. Was just asking for more information about what you do to clarify what you mean, since you're posting all over about it.

I have never tried to shine brighter by unscrewing someone else's lightbulb, bud. Don't know why you are so obsessed with me. You can fuck off with it, though.

I wish I knew why all these yahoos get so offended by my existence.

Seriously though... don't talk to me, Ninja Wizard man, I got nothing further to say to you that won't make you cry.

oh, ok. fair enough. that's fine.
only one thing to correct I suppose
there's a difference in "not knowing" something, and not wishing to do something else.

I mean maybe my practice is rubbish, it might be hard for me to tell.
but not knowing what I practice. how does that make sense. not sure.

perhaps you could try to discern the difference.
sorry if that post triggered you, it wasn't really meant to.

and yea the ninja wizard thing does sound pretty damn cool
perhaps I should ask to change my user name.

[origami_itto]

there's a difference in "not knowing" something, and not wishing to do something else.

[Doc Stier]

Want to know how the Ninja Wizards develop their incredible skills? Can you keep a secret? You can? Well, apparently, so can they, so we may never know for sure.

[cloudz]

and then there's the crowd that say "there are no secrets",
though sometimes my teacher would say "it's all bollocks"

so maybe he was a smart bastard.
he also told me "wise is twin to the fool"

asking the meaning of internal, or words to that effect, is like going on a forum, or similar, and asking "what's the meaning of life"
you'll get so many different answers your head might spin, or asking what's the sound of one hand.. same result probably.

my point, some things are subjective. because they are supposed to be perhaps. If you "knew" the answer, your head probably couldn't handle it. If there was even an answer. and when I say knew, I mean something you could put into words and made sense empirically to anyone that heard or read it, in the same way.

they say there's three sides to every story, yours, the other guys and the truth. And we all know what they say about the Tao right ?

so.. there were a couple of questions we were wrestling with there, or here. Or so it seems.


one is the training; of which there are many
the other is the meaning, of which there are probably more.

best of luck.

[Appledog]

and then there's the crowd that say "there are no secrets",
though sometimes my teacher would say "it's all bollocks"

so maybe he was a smart bastard.
he also told me "wise is twin to the fool"

asking the meaning of internal, or words to that effect, is like going on a forum, or similar, and asking "what's the meaning of life"
you'll get so many different answers your head might spin, or asking what's the sound of one hand.. same result probably.

my point, some things are subjective.

It's really not. There are secrets, but they are not secrets, they are teachings that require you to be at a certain level.

And, for better or worse, most people plateau at one or two of a few levels. And therefore it seems as if there are secrets.

But there really aren't. The master is just waiting for you to improve and then you will be ready. Before then its a waste of time to tell you too much because it will make you focus on the wrong areas and slow your development.

[cloudz]

Sorry Applodog, what's not ?

I was saying the meaning of life is subjective..
the meaning of internal as in a western equivalent term to explain it clearly?

Well yea to me that's not subjective either.. In that I have already said in other threads what I think it means in this context. Esoteric (work).
But that means different things and is not an objective or empirical thing itself. The work, not the meaning of the word. Different things.

Also what Internal means to other people varies a lot, so in that sense it is quite subjective. Like the meaning of Life.. An analogy if you will. So I say "some things are subjective"

In the sense they could be considered internal by some - the internal strength/ body skills stuff. I'm really not too bothered if they are or aren't to be honest (considered internal). I'm fine with my understanding of it frankly.

So it can mean different things to different people.

The Tao cannot be spoken for example.. so any explanation cannot be objective, just like God. That's why there are so many versions of religion, spirituality and esoteric work in the world.

That is what I mean by subjective

As for the training; secret in this context means you haven't learnt it or found out about it yet. It'd not "secret" it's hidden in the sense you haven't found it yet.

We may agree what it means therefore, so maybe for us it is intersubjective? In terms of what it translates to. But the esoteric world itself, you can only really describe it in subjective terms. You can't prove to someone else what it is. In that sense it is subjective. It's "in our minds", so to speak. Something we experience, It's phenomenology.

But "knowing" in the sense of the Tao for example.. That's a Gnostic type of Knowing; so Esoteric knowledge (understanding) of where it leads is an experience. Which is why it's described differently. The exercises are not subjective; I agree. They are what they are.

Help me out here, if you have another Understanding or meaning for it, by all means. But you don't have to, just maybe say you agree or disagree? He wanted to understand my understanding of Internal... I cannot offer an explanation of what a Banana tastes like. So my internal experience of the experience brought by internal work is not something I can offer anyone else.

I can describe exercises, but I can't tell you what to feel, or what it feels like to experience energy and what it does, what it feels like. whether qi as experienced in everyday martial neigong or Kundalini for example and its effects, what it can lead to. You can only know it by experience. You cannot speak it.. Objectively. What I tell you will be my subjective experience, someone else will describe theirs differently especially in the latter case, the former (martial neigong) maybe not so much. it's like a pressure through the body from centre to extremities. It's really the Kundalini that leads to transformation and things that are beyond speech. I can tell you some things, but I could have just hallucinated it. I have shared some of that before on RSF though. These experiences are described by others, so confirmed in that sense. But it can be argues that the practices lead to physiological changes that lead to experiences that are "just in your mind" or artificial, not real in how we might interpretate or take to mean. Basically like taking drugs. Just cheaper.

Hope that makes sense.

[Appledog]

I'm fine with my understanding of it frankly.

Hear hear!

You can be fine with what you know, and it can mean different things to different people, but if there was no hard, solid, real definition, then if it could be anything it is nothing. But that doesn't matter. As long as you are happy.

Help me out here, if you have another Understanding or meaning for it, by all means. But you don't have to, just maybe say you agree or disagree?

Me? Not my business to teach you or anyone here. Ask your teacher. What could I tell you? Remember, you can't see internal. So let's use our science. If you can see it, it isn't internal. Any kind of movement you try to do is automatically not internal. More than that, ask your teacher. But I think you might be able to glean something from wayne's words too.

I can describe exercises, but I can't tell you what to feel, or what it feels like to experience energy and what it does, what it feels like. whether qi as experienced in everyday neigong or Kundalini for example and its effects, what it can lead to. You can only know it by experience. You cannot speak it.. Objectively.

That's because you're not a teacher. This is the very function of a proper teacher, to guide you through certain experiences and things that happen when you train.

[origami_itto]

You can only know it by experience. You cannot speak it.. Objectively.

That's because you're not a teacher. This is the very function of a proper teacher, to guide you through certain experiences and things that happen when you train.

Yeah I have to say that my experience is like you describe, Appledog. There are subjective experiences, yes, but they are easily described and reproduced.

There is a problem of TIMING, that is that if you describe a thing too early then the aspirant might start to imagine the thing and then the imagined thing takes the place of the actual development.

The things themselves are pretty consistent experience wise across folks with a legitimate practice, though.

[cloudz]

i described the effect of that neigong; a breathing exercise
yes I'm not a teacher, but I can describe feeling. but it's the common stuff.
I don't see the point.

I think it's better to experience without preconceptions
then of course there should be feedback!

I'm saying you can't speak the absolute. but you can 'talk around it'. there's a difference. and you can experience it.
if you don't know why, I'm not sure I can help

have either of you studied jnana yoga ?
It's one of four types of yoga.

you are meant to only choose one that suits your personality.