Zhang Zhun Feng's xingyiquan??

[XiaoXiong]

So I know Zhang learned Xingyi from Li Bin Tang mostly. After seeing some different portrayals of Li Cun Yi's xingyi from other branches I see some pretty major differences from ours, especially I haven't seen anyone else doing the same version of Tai Xing we do anywhere. Everyone seems to do the double underhooks punch thing, whereas we have the long form Zhang does on the ef video. Do other branches from Li Cun Yi have the similar/same animal forms as Yi Zong or is it much different? Is this Tai bird form a creation of Zhang's? What about his Chicken form? I'm especially interested in tai bird, chicken and monkey. In my opinion these contain most of the fighting techniques of the system and are arguably some of the most important for fighting skill in our branch along with Ma Xing. Would love to hear some thoughts from any of you who have any insight into the history of Zhang's xingyi system and how it fits in with the Li Cun Yi system.

Thanks in advance,
J

[chrislomas]

I believe that version of Tai bird was created using the tactics of the Shaolin (another 'village' system named Hong Quan) he learned in his youth. It is Xingyi-ified as it were. If incorrect I look forward to being put right by those more in the know then I

[Franklin]

chicken form is essentially
the combination form Ji Xing Si Ba (chicken shape four seizes)
in other Li Tsun Yi lineages

franklin

[kenneth fish]

The double punch (one fist up, one fist down), kick and squat version of Tai is not that uncommon - I saw the identical move for Tai in Hebei, Shanxi, and Shandong. This is the first I have heard of it being "xinyi-fied" hong quan - and I once asked Master Zhang why our Tai bird was different (the answer "this is how I was taught, this is how we do it").

The Chicken form is also not unusual, at least not from what I have seen. Ji Xing Si Ba is somewhat different (it includes large chopping movements like pishan zhang) and upwards thrusts (similar to tiaozhang). Also, as I learned chicken, there is a leaping kick before the turn around, kicking with the back leg and then the front leg (very chicken like).

I hadn't heard the Li Bintang connection before - where did you hear this? I knew another student of Li Bintang (Zhang Wanru), and his Xingyi was quite different - more compact, animals pretty much like what most Li Cunyi lines demonstrate.

There were other differences in Master Zhang's Xingyi as well - and my impression was that most of these could be laid at the feet of Master Gao Yisheng - from whom I believe most of Master Zhang's Xingyi really originated (although he did spend time at the school of Li Cunyi as well).

[Franklin]

Thank you for the information Mr. Fish.

Did Master Zhang teach a Ji Xing Si Ba?

I ask because the chickens that I learned from a student of Hsu Hong Ji (Master James McNiel)
were Da Ji (fighting chicken) and Ji Xing

The Ji Xing from the that line follows move for move the Ji Xing Si Ba I learned from Master Gong Zhong Xiang (Li Tsun Yi- Chu Gui Ting- Master Gong)- of course with stylistic differences.
The Da Ji was also very similar to the Ji Xing I learned from Master Gong- the difference being that the Da Ji was high frame with explosive movements and the Ji Xing from Master Gong is trained with no explosive movements and done as a nei gong...

Thanks for any thoughts or additional information.

Franklin

[kenneth fish]

The fighting chicken we called Dou Ji. Master Zhang did not teach a separate Ji Xing Si Ba, but he did teach a set called ba (grasping) shi that had some similar movements (not the ba shi set (eight stances) that consists of eight lines of tan tui like moves).

Master Gong's xingyi is a very good representation of Zhu Guiting's teachings. James McNeil, from what I gather, studied from several teachers and may be teaching a different set from master Zhang's.

When I was in Beijing I met a teacher whom I think was under the same teacher as Liu Jingru - he did a lot of the same 12 animal moves as Master Zhang. Not sure what to make of that, except that Master Zhang's Xingyi was not of his own manufacture.

[chrislomas]

Ken Fish

The double punch (one fist up, one fist down), kick and squat version of Tai is not that uncommon - I saw the identical move for Tai in Hebei, Shanxi, and Shandong. This is the first I have heard of it being "xinyi-fied" hong quan - and I once asked Master Zhang why our Tai bird was different (the answer "this is how I was taught, this is how we do it").

Thanks. I heard it from a couple of Hung's students but they were obviously not so close to GM Zhang as yourself.

[Franklin]

Thanks Mr. Fish

sorry your right i meant Dou Ji- for fighting chicken


franklin

[XiaoXiong]

Thanks Ken! That's very interesting. As far as ji xing goes we only have done the one Luo does in the video so far.

I have heard Li Bin Tang taught Zhang from a few different sources including my teacher George Wood. It doesn't seem very clear how much he learned there but seems to be accepted that he learned from Li Bin Tang at Li Cun Yi's school, but it also is accepted that Zhang got a lot of xingyi from Gao.

The relationships between Cheng Ting Hua, Zhang Zhao Dong, Li Cun Yi, and Liu De Kuan, and then much later, Gao Yi Sheng, Zhang Zhun Feng, Wu Meng Xia, and probably others of note I can't think of seems to be where most of the stuff you see in the Yi Zong system was tested refined and finally developed into the system we have today. I think these periods of exchanging and testing new ideas and methods were two of the biggest leaps forward in the history of our lineage, so I find it fascinating to try to understand how the system developed and where ideas came from especially.

Thanks again, and any more anecdotes on Zhang's xingyi especially would be great, I have a lot more info on our bagua for some reason...

J

[iwalkthecircle]

Mr Fish or any YiZung (易宗) people,

I just met Mike Bingo, a senior student of Hsu Hung-Chi (許鴻基). Hsu Hung-Chi is a student of Hung I-Hsiang (洪懿祥). For the most part lots stuff were different than from what i learned 1st from Lo Te-Hsiu (羅德修) & Marcus Brinkman, whom are also student of Hung I-Hsiang.

Who changed YiZung's XYC? Who's XYC is closest to the Chang Chun-Feng's (張俊峰) XYC? Is there any clip of Chang Chun-Feng's XYC?

all confused,
John H.

[Bill]

These are all good questions.
I learned from John Price. My ji xing form is exactly like Luo's form that he demos on youtube. FYI.

[kenneth fish]

Hus Hongji was a close friend of my classmate Li Tsonghsiung. From what he told me (and I don't have first hand knowledge of this, sorry) Hsu made significant changes after studying with some other teachers. I only saw Hong and Hsu socially a few times, and did not have much contact with their branch of Master Zhang's teaching, so I couldn't say what was changed and where.

[Bill]

Ken

Is Li Tsonghsiung the man I know as Black Snake Li ?

[kenneth fish]

I don't know - he was my classmate under Master Zhang (from what I hear he was the youngest student that Master Zhang ever took in ). We just called him by his first name. He later became a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine and moved to Brazil, where I hear he has quite a following.

[Bill]

Thanks