Principles vs. Techniques

[twocircles13]

Tai Chi and Qigong, as well as all Chinese martial arts, begin training by copying and repeating techniques. Over time, these techniques become internalized and yield what is known as “gong” — the same word as “gong fu” (kung fu). This kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body.


The biggest mistake beginners make is to focus on the art intellectually and to try and understand or rationalize the principles of the art before being able to express them. It is good to understand what the principles are as a roadmap but no amount of “understanding” makes up for “perception”. It can also cause problems if there is a mistake in understanding because the student will miss or resist the correct training results later.


This teaching is easy to understand and easy to follow. The teacher says, “If you want what I have, then do what I do.” You must copy the teacher’s techniques diligently, precisely and accurately, trust the teacher and be patient to achieve results. This is difficult to understand in the beginning because it can take years to achieve results. So you must find a teacher who is both knowledgeable and virtuous in his conduct and you must follow him for as long as you can.


What do YOU think? What is more important? To understand the principles, or to perform the techniques? Are they really two separate things?

I had a different answer prepared, but then I really read the OP and questions.

As the OP suggests developing skill, ability to use the art in any situation, is likely the primary goal.

Then, yes, doing what your teacher does is of first importance to duplicate his or her skill set. And, beginners often spend too much time trying to “understand” what they are doing. I think this is a modern phenomenon. Seeking understanding is frequently not the best path in learning a physical skill. The cognitive brain often interferes with and corrupts motor function.

Of equal importance is doing what your teacher says. Although we often “interpret" what we think he is saying, or take it too literally, both of these can cause development problems.

With the advantage of video recordings, I am also an advocate of slo-mo, frame-by-frame, and repeat to educate our neural pathways to learn how to do what our teachers are actually doing. This can be useful to clarify understanding that may otherwise take a very long time to gain.

However, in today’s long-distance instruction and limited time together, understanding a guiding principle can assist you in your practice and development in the interim.

So, my answer to the OP’s queries are situational. If you have regular, frequent contact with your teacher, principles pale in comparison to just following them and their instruction. If your contact is infrequent, having guiding principles can be of great assistance to training, so they have greater importance.

[wayne hansen]

Tai chi is in the teachers touch
Nothing more nothing less
Both principles and techniques are passed on this way
No part of tai chi is more important than anything else

[twocircles13]

Tai chi is in the teachers touch
Nothing more nothing less
Both principles and techniques are passed on this way
No part of tai chi is more important than anything else

Yeah, that is a good point.

True transmission is ultimately in the touch, but there are things to do to prepare for that, especially if your visits with your teacher are few and far between.

[Appledog]

Tai chi is in the teachers touch
Nothing more nothing less
Both principles and techniques are passed on this way
No part of tai chi is more important than anything else

Yeah, that is a good point.

True transmission is ultimately in the touch, but there are things to do to prepare for that, especially if your visits with your teacher are few and far between.

In my mind, it's just one small part. My feeling is that Tai Chi is in the personal development and wu de development of the student. Having a highly skilled teacher -- and I mean truly high skilled -- can show you the heights but you still have to find a way to get there yourself. Yes, as wayne said, such a teacher can clue you in to "where you need to look". Sometimes people need this. Sometimes if they don't have it they cannot learn good skills in their own lifetime. But even when it is pointed out to you, then you still need to go to that place by yourself. No one can do your homework for you.

However, it is possible to discover the "secret" on your own. It is possible to figure it out in one lifetime, even with only a teacher of middle level. How is it possible? There are ways. But a teacher prefers to see his student and guide him. A teacher does not want to break tradition. So there are ways but it is only taught in special circumstances. It isn't a secret you just have to become like a child again. You can't ask your teacher but you can research it yourself. When I asked about this my teacher told me to start over by reading Confucious and Huangdi Neijing and some other old taoist books. Here is the first thing I read:

知止而后有定，定而后能靜，靜而后能安，安而后能慮，慮而后能得。

(The teacher can show you, and then,) Knowing where it is, concentrate on it. Concentration leads to serenity, serenity leads to tranquility, tranquility can lead to peace, (Don't reach for the far and ignore the near). Focus on this formula and you can do it.

This is materially the same as an old Taoist Qigong formula he taught me. He was waiting for me to make this connection. Now I can follow and study Confucious and learn detailed principles from him too. This is research I have to do. The teacher can only point you where to go. My teacher said,

内经素问有妙论, 入道倍感上师恩。

Be grateful to the instructions given by the ancient Qigoing masters (such as Confucious, Huangdi, etc).

it was only when I took my own responsibility seriously and tried to change myself and my attitude of waiting for a teacher to come and pull my strings that I began to make any progress at all.

[wayne hansen]

You are talking about theory and philosophy not Wu De and martial arts
You won’t show yourself ans your students only show the most basic skill
If you talk a big game you need to show us why we should take what you say as anything more than just talk

[twocircles13]

You are talking about theory and philosophy not Wu De and martial arts
You won’t show yourself ans your students only show the most basic skill
If you talk a big game you need to show us why we should take what you say as anything more than just talk

I know there’s this attitude that we need to expose charlatans and discount those of who are not of above-average ability. And, maybe the Western branches of the CIMA needed to clean house a little bit. However, many members have instruction from legitimate sources, and therefore have valid information to share regardless of their skill levels. Whether that information is important or impactful to you, or agrees with your instructional traditions or understanding, is up to you to determine but irrelevant to the validity of the information. You are also free to offer a contrasting view, neither view impacting the validity of the other.

If @appledog’s view and goals related to taijiquan appear to place martial ability low in priority, then physical-touch transmission “is just a small part.” In my experience, physical-touch transmission Is vital and the optimal way to learn to use Taijiquan as a martial art. Other methods, such as mirror-neuron learning by following the teacher’s actions, only prepare one's mind and body to process the touch when it occurs. Personal development and wu de, on the other hand, can be developed through other study methods.

There is a Chinese adage, “When the student is ready, the master appears.” I have always considered that readiness to be when the student determines to take charge of their own learning process. They are then prepared to consume and internalize what the teacher will provide them.

This is a watershed moment, however. I have seen both sides. Some students go with and learn from the teacher.

Others for a variety of reasons, good and bad, decide they’d rather stay solely in charge of their learning process and reject the teacher when they appear. The wife of a famous teacher called these people "lone wolves". They circle around the campfire looking in, but they will not come into the circle. They spend their lives reinventing the wheel, so to speak. Some of these find great and wonderful things, even new innovations. Many just stay in the dark and get kind of lost. A few of these people are well known to this group.

But, that is the path they chose. The Chinese view each path is as valid a choice as any other, though it may or may not take the individual where they originally intended to go. The journey can be just as important as the destination. This is the nature of the Dao.

[everything]

for people of ordinary talent and ability, a teacher helps a lot. for a Messi, a Mozart, various child prodigies we can easily find these days, and so on, it's hard to say what their "teachers" really taught them. It's as if "the Universe" or "Universal Tao" or "God" speaks through them. The most talented kid I coached in futbol - I really didn't teach him. I would show him one move, and he'd come back in a few days, not only have it mastered, but also show me variations of it I didn't know / cannot do.

A 6 year old Alma Deutscher would wake up with full symphonies playing in her head, and she said she had to write down the "composition" immediately or she'd forget it. A lifetime of music instruction for me would not ever allow me to do that. If you know your talent is mediocre, keep going to the guitar teacher.

A lot of people on here talk as if they're "Messi" or could teach "Messi" something, or learned from a "Messi". Maybe you are actually humble in real life, but if you just read this logic, you should know that's hogwash/deluded.

[Taste of Death]

A lot of people on here talk as if they're "Messi" or could teach "Messi" something, or learned from a "Messi". Maybe you are actually humble in real life, but if you just read this logic, you should know that's hogwash/deluded.

Messi's coaches are not as talented as him but he can still learn from their wisdom if not their ability. Multi-event track & field coach Harry Marra cannot do all the events, such as pole vaulting, but he has to model them. His athletes, Ashton Eaton and Brianne Theisen-Eaton, were Olympic gold and bronze medalists, respectively.

[wayne hansen]

We should ask Jake Mace what he thinks of that

[Taste of Death]

We should ask Jake Mace what he thinks of that

I don't think Marra would take him on as a client. "Put that javelin down before you hurt someone."

[everything]

coaches

That's one of the points in my beating of this dead horse. If Messi's coach didn't have the same skill but made him better in some small way, it still makes sense. Although it's a team sport, etc., etc. Coaches did build around him in different ways having more to do with team tactics. But that's a digression of the analogy.

It doesn't make sense (for example) that we trace back Messi's lineage and try to learn from someone earlier "because lineage". In this traditional line of thinking, pre scientific method ("knowledge is passed down, life and dynasties are the same, studying the past is most important, if you make a mistake, you didn't heed the ancestral lessons well enough"), how could anyone else ever come along and be any better? It's impossible. But for some reason in a modern world, we want to take this worldview selectively. There is some series of fallacies there.

[wayne hansen]

I know a little about both codes of rugby
I saw the current crop of coaches when they were players
80% of them weren’t very good players
Internal arts are different
If you don’t practice art daily and in depth and had a good teacher you will never be a good coach