How do you structure a class?

[Doc Stier]

In the moment action should be spontaneous, but the response is rarely something your body has never done before.

I totally agree. One of your best posts.

Proper training produces automatic reactions and spontaneous responses which instantly manifest themselves without any conscious analysis or decision making, and they always reflect the normal quality of your movement in both solo and partner practices. When you seriously work for it, it will work for you when needed.

[Taste of Death]

In Major Konstantin Komarov's Systema Manual https://systemavasiliev.com/store/product/systema-manual-by-major-komarov/ he tells a story of his friend talking on the phone and then falling down a flight of stairs. The friend rolled to a standing position and kept on walking and talking as if nothing had happened. Did he practice falling down a flight of stairs or did he practice the body conditioning and sense of awareness that would enable to have this happen and not get hurt or even flustered? Luck played a part, too, of course, but one can't prepare for every situation. But one can prepare for any situation.

[Trick]

the five fists was a creation of Li Luoneng i guess ?
and by so the 5 fists came around at a time when the spear was beginning falling out of fashion for combat use, however Li Luoneng was probably not unfamiliar working with stick based tools as it seem he was a farmer（rakes,shovels, pitchforks）when he came to study xinyiquan.
To my eye Dai-family xinyiquan bare not to much resemblance to spear practise. And the much older（although todays version is a recreation）xinyiba seem to not carry any spear in mind.

the five fists are crystalisations of the core essence of the 10-12 animal shapes, but also as i believe, the five santi-based fists holds their shape due to the tongbeiquan Li Luoneng also knew.

Li was born in the early 1800s. Traditional weapons didn't run out of popularity until the boxer rebellion. The boxer rebellion proves that the people didn't have firearms, right?

All Xingyi and Xinyi developed from the Dai family 3 fists. They preceded the 10 and 12 animals. The five fists developed from these three fists together with spear methods. However you try to turn around the facts, the postures of the five fists and their names are still almost identical to the five most basic spear techniques and names used for these techniques. These Chinese spear methods have been well documented since at least the 11th century.

”wrestling” - in history seem definitely as the core base from where other hand to hand combat methods evolved from.
eventually for soldier wresling was a good way to maintain ones body and mind combat ready......also the vikings had it that way with their Glima.
wrestling, sure a lot of grabbing, but as so a very much direct hands on way to learn ”listening” so to properly do what at right time.

You assume that all hand to combat methods evolved from wrestling, in linear way evolution. I just don't believe this is true.

First, what is wrestling? Old types of wrestling could involve biting, scratching, head-butting, elbows, knees and fists. The versions today called wrestling developed as sport or a way to settle disputes man to man.

Second, martial arts have just a long history as wrestling, because people have always had to rely on themselves to protect themselves, their families and houses. Martial arts and self-defence is different than wrestling. They involve protecting yourself and others in any type of context. Chinese martial arts also involve traditional weapons because weapons were the main things to defend yourself with. Empty hand combat was always something secondary or a way to practice principles involving weapons without actually using weapons. So that weapons theory and military strategies blended together with empty hand methods and even wrestling is not far-fetched. And then you have to consider the people who developed martial arts. The Chinese internal martial arts have since at least the 17th century developed mostly by bodyguards and security personnel, people who always wore weapons and studied weaponry. This is just a fact. You can just read the classic IMA literature and it will be quite clear that this is the case, as they are packed with bodyguards and stories about bodyguards, as well as written by bodyguards.

taiji-push hands is a variation of this, as we know.

Push hands is sensitivity training. Before the 1980s Chen "masters" started to promote push hands competitions Push hands had never been synonymous with wrestling or practiced as wrestling.

människa how do you explain stuff, you seemingly.contradict yourself over and over.

first you say xiingyiquan developed from spear techniques, then in next breath you say the three old fists as source（which follow my line of belief, thank you ）

then you.go on opposing my stace that all kind of hand to hand combat evolved from wrestling, you oppose by saying original wrestling contained - elbow, knee and fist strikes, and also headbutts, and even further, scratching and biting（cat fight/tiger style ）. well even on this issue you actually seem to agree with me in your effort to oppose, thank you, i guess

push-hands/wrestling - i said “a variation”, not “synonymous“ ,as you changed it to

[windwalker]

In Major Konstantin Komarov's Systema Manual https://systemavasiliev.com/store/product/systema-manual-by-major-komarov/ he tells a story of his friend talking on the phone and then falling down a flight of stairs. The friend rolled to a standing position and kept on walking and talking as if nothing had happened. Did he practice falling down a flight of stairs or did he practice the body conditioning and sense of awareness that would enable to have this happen and not get hurt or even flustered? Luck played a part, too, of course, but one can't prepare for every situation. But one can prepare for any situation.

memories

During the cold war 70s,,, training in Vieux Brisach... .



One of the French soldiers training with us on patrol, managed to step off of a small drop off in the middle of the night, pitch black...
Every one laughed quietly, understanding they could suffer the same fate. We could hear the thump as he hit the ground followed by low moaning....Being the medic, reacted running towards the noise, unable to see managed to run off the same drop off he did. hahah, with all my gear on,,grabbing my sleeping bag from the back tucked in mid fall , landing on my ruck hitting the ground rolling out of it...

Luckily not on the fallen solder but close by....no injury at all.... found the solder checked him out..he had minor injuries from the way he landed..luckily for both of us,,,no rocks and not so far to fall. I would guess not more then 20ft or so...

The French solder a member of the French Foreign Legion..
pretty tough guys....cool accents...


It is interesting,,,,in the military the class structures depending on the training
were designed to weed out people.. high attrition rates the norm...

Seemed similar to the first CMA training I started with oriented towards fighting...

[RobP3]

In Major Konstantin Komarov's Systema Manual https://systemavasiliev.com/store/product/systema-manual-by-major-komarov/ he tells a story of his friend talking on the phone and then falling down a flight of stairs. The friend rolled to a standing position and kept on walking and talking as if nothing had happened. Did he practice falling down a flight of stairs or did he practice the body conditioning and sense of awareness that would enable to have this happen and not get hurt or even flustered? Luck played a part, too, of course, but one can't prepare for every situation. But one can prepare for any situation.

We do practice falling in all sorts of places, so it is likely that he had done at least some work on stairs. I hear what you are saying, but also in order to learn how to really swim, you have to get wet.

[origami_itto]

In the moment action should be spontaneous, but the response is rarely something your body has never done before.

I totally agree. One of your best posts.

Aww, thanks Doc.
Personally I'm proudest of the Batman dossier dig, but I understand that my true genius will forever go uncelebrated.

Proper training produces automatic reactions and spontaneous responses which instantly manifest themselves without any conscious analysis or decision making, and they always reflect the normal quality of your movement in both solo and partner practices. When you seriously work for it, it will work for you when needed.

Iowa Bob in Hotel New Hampshire tells his grandson, regarding training to be a collegiate wrestler, "Get obsessed and stay obsessed"

I feel like now I feel it when I skip a day.

Taste of Death, in a huge fan of standing, but you have to move, too

My personal practice right now, I'm bringing weapons back into them mix, my two hand spins and crap, mainly.

My left arm is dumber than my right arm, it can't do everything that the other can, and what it can do, it can't do as smoothly.

But it's smarter than when I started, right now it's probably a little better than the right was when I initially picked it up.


Point being the muscles are conditioned and neurons connected through actually doing the movement. That leads to strength and coordination in motion that is helpful far beyond the limited scope of potential fights.

Where I've found the I Chuan approach to be most beneficial is push hands. At his workshop Curtis Brough says that in his standing and exercises he's just trying to be a better ball.

What that translated to me practically was that zhong ding and peng essentially handle 80% of the work. You work too hold and keep that structure and they just sort of bounce off.

It's not enough for the whole skill set but I think it's a critical foundation for the rest to hang on.

[origami_itto]

:o

I find muscle and mind confusion pays off.

Thank you. I am so advised. Damn! I never realized that?

You know I completely missed this one.

I would often presume to lecture one so learned as yourself, Sifu.

What I mean here is difficulty means progress. Staying in my comfort zone I'll never get any further, right?

So we push the boundary, work with concepts that confuse us, attempt movement that makes us feel clumsy until it feels smooth and we get it right, then we keep going till we can't get it wrong.

But along the way...

Pushing through those periods of mental and physical confusion, the bitter work, pays off and opens new realms of exploration and development.

I've been chewing a lot on this question lately, as we all should if we're presuming to teach.

We can agree that what's needed for self defense and even sport is a fairly limited range of exercises, particularly forms. Even the basic forms can be worked in a way to support tactical conflict resolution effectively.

Likewise for health, you don't need much. You can throw together a qigong set that would handle most of the health needs.

I will say this categorically and challenge any of you to prove me wrong: We are fooling ourselves if we think that the systems we practice are in any way the most efficient and practical way to prepare anyone for fighting.

Not saying they aren't effective, just saying if you want to get out there and kick as much ass as possible, you're wasting your time here, it's not what they do.

How often are any of us even fighting? Sparring? Pushing hands? Working with a partner, even? I know I don't get enough of it. I'm going to avoid a fight by any means necessary and when I can't end it as quickly as possible by whatever means are at hand up to an including ICBM.

Sparring, calisthenics, meditation, leave the Chinese in the orient.

So then what is the point, fetishization of the exotic? Cultivation of subtle energy? Perfecting the operation of the human machine? Curiosity?

I know I feel a lot like this stuff is my "realm" the way Star Wars or The Lord of The Rings or Marvel are some people's "realm" it's that special interest with an unending amount of information available to discover and discuss with others interested in the topic.

The practices themselves likewise continuously reveal more about themselves and about my own human machine and the taiji creature it's becoming.

So more forms, give em to me, if I like em I'll keep em if not I'll abandon them. More weapons, let's have em. They provide a framework for working the skills and energies cultivated in the standing and qigong, as well as conditioning of muscles and neurons that provide access to greater degrees of freedom in my movement.

So they are very practical. They are totally practical and ONLY practical, they aren't just fun.... they're so NOT fun... they're just misery... they just eat up time...

I hope the sarcasm is evident there.

We're creatures of movement. We're built to do more than stand, we do more than fight, we walk and run and jump and dance and SOAR, not just root to the ground like a tree and stay there forever.

I'm so tired of having to justify my practice, aren't you? Above all else, it's FUN, it's SATISFYING, it's rewarding in it's own right.

The flip side of the confusion is the taste of perfection that awaits on the other side. Alex writes about it in workshop notes. Those fleeting moments where it's just so smooth and silky and effortless and you're just in that zone, flowing.

But I got a little off track.

When we're talking about an individual's practice, yes I agree there comes a point in time where the actual cultivation occurs in a limited set of exercises. The others just lose their potency and therefore their point, the time is better spent elsewhere.

However, one very important part of an individual's practice is teaching. Communicating those skills to a new generation to carry it further. A collection of purpose built forms is a great help for getting there.

I mentioned this briefly earlier, but why not be loquacious.

You have forms that target specific levels of development and purpose of cultivation and introduce them to the class and guide them through the exercises in a disciplined manner. This is a stylistic pedagogy.

One approach is, "here's this exercise. Sifu told us sometimes we can do it this way, sometimes we can do it this way, sometimes we can do it this way, so yeah, why don't you guys practice"

Such a shitty class IMHO. Better like "Here is the exercise, one side does this, the other side does this, practice, switch sides, practice." Later, "Here is the exercise again, and a variation" then we can practice them with specific variations in a systematic fashion to be sure we hit each point we want to develop.

Forms are the same way, really, we can do each one in several ways and that can look like different forms, we can also take a different approach to the ideas in the form and wind up with something that looks VERY different.

Then, of course, you can have those little divergences and ornamentations and signatures.

In a way, learning a form is like reading a book with your body, and like a book our relationship to the story can change with time, and like a story there's really only a handful of plots and tropes and character archetypes.

That doesn't mean we should only read one book and consider the matter covered.

So bringing it back to the point, the different forms are like different instructional modules in modern terms. Additive learning to build upon the skills achieved in each level with the demonstration of form competence being the measurement for receiving additional blocks of instruction.

This isn't just an a priori natural phenomenon, it's a systematically constructed curriculum designed to help bring a student from 0 to Hero in no time flat. Your Mileage May Vary. (YMMV)

[Taste of Death]

Shi li is where we take the standing practice for a ride. But, of course, what we gain from zhan zhuang should be in every movement.

Yes, be the ball. Now, where have I heard that before?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3akC_INsFc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lUE59U0kxQ

[windwalker]

Yes, be the ball. Now, where have I heard that before?

training...

[Taste of Death]

It's Cheuk's world. The rest of us are just playing in it.

[Bao]

Trick: Things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. You think I am contradicting myself as you assume things develop in a simple linear manner. Reality is usually more complicated.

– The Dai three fists preceded the XY five fists.

– The postures/movements of the five fists are almost identical to spear methods also older than the 5 fists.

Both of these statements are true. You can see them as contradicting each other. If you want to make sense of it you would to have study the creators of these arts, their time and its culture. But if you don't want to, or don't know how to, then you'll just have to accept that you don't understand how those things are connected, and move on with your life.

[Trick]

Trick: Things are not necessarily mutually exclusive. You think I am contradicting myself as you assume things develop in a simple linear manner. Reality is usually more complicated.

– The Dai three fists preceded the XY five fists.

– The postures/movements of the five fists are almost identical to spear methods also older than the 5 fists.

Both of these statements are true. You can see them as contradicting each other. If you want to make sense of it you would to have study the creators of these arts, their time and its culture. But if you don't want to, or don't know how to, then you'll just have to accept that you don't understand how those things are connected, and move on with your life.

sure, we all do, i mean, go on with our lives...so thats a non issue.....or maybe you ment to say i should get off your back and mind my own business?

anyway, one small thing - the spear/xinyi thing is often said to be of Ji Longfeng, isnt that before the Dai fists, but as i pointed out before that Dai-xinyi doesnt at all look spearlike（just as i also think about the later “xingyiquan”）,

But yes you might be right, if i just read more books on the topic and perhaps visualize myself living in those ancient times while doing my five fists i might change my stance...ill give it a try.

[Bao]

... If you are not serious, why do you keep asking questions? Just want a reason to waste some time?

[Trick]

:/

... If you are not serious, why do you keep asking questions? Just want a reason to waste some time?

questions !?
you seem confused, ive not asked any questions, i made a statement, that i dont think xingyiquan especially the five element fists has evolved from spearplay - it was you that made a comment on that statement saying im wrong by laying out the common version one only can read about, texts that not even vaguely present the spear to boxing evolution.
ancient spearmaster X created “spear”boxing - isnt enough in my book to present as fact, its a source one only can make guesses from - and in our days its even more difficult to try establish a fact out of it since we dont use spears in actual combat.....and even most of us do not experience ”actual” combat

Anyway, to keep my post on topic - so if one is a XYQ-teacher with the strong belief of spear to boxing tradition, maybe it could be an idea to structure classes such as to start the begginers with spear-play to later proceed into pugilism.......actually in my begginers days i wouldnt mind such an approach....but where im now i see i did fine anyway....good day.

[Bao]

you seem confused, ive not asked any questions, i made a statement, that i dont think xingyiquan especially the five element fists has evolved from spearplay -

Yes, I am confused, I contradict myself, I make no sense.... And you are 100% correct.

No wonder why you've already left the RSF several times, you can't really keep to a civilized conversation. Same with Graham, but at least he doesn't run off and sob.

it was you that made a comment on that statement saying im wrong by laying out the common version one only can read about,

I am not laying forward something I've read, I am not trying to convince anyone and I don't give a fuck about what you "believe". I have studied and practiced the traditional Chinese spear methods I am speaking about. So I am speaking solely from my own experience, from what I have learned and I just confirm what others have said. You have the right to stick to your own view. Now I have tried to make myself clear. So if you still don't want to understand, well then you can just fuck the hell off.