How do you structure a class?

[BruceP]

Well, I don't know if there is something you could call "internal striking". I wrote "internal methods", using internal methods to strike with. Not trying to argue about semantics, but I think this is an important distinction.


Overall, this is a very hard topic to write about. I have tried to write articles about the subject, but I think you really need to have it shown. And to really understand, you also need to feel it from someone who can do it. Anyway, hope it makes sense.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Much appreciated. And, yes, I did miss your point regards internal methods - an important distinction for sure.

It is a difficult topic because of the vagaries of body types and the mental/mind component that drives/shapes the individual's physicality and body usage.

Most of what you outlined is something my boxing coaches stressed with all beginners. Even diaphragmatic recruitment and level hips was a part of what they taught, and I'm assuming all good boxing has the same foci.

Might have strayed a little off topic, but it's also directly related to how a class is structured when the focus is martial method.

[everything]

slightly back on topic, structure it with the 80/20 rule. what 20% of material gives you 80% of the results you want with that class. keep going in layers. what is the next 20% to get the 80% of the remaining original 20%? and so on. everything in life is about assumptions, though. tradeoff decisions sound difficult but should be easier. really bad assumptions is the real issue.

[windwalker]

With a lot of discussions, similar in nature.

As both Ghram , BruceP, pointed out.
None of what was mentioned is exclusive, to what is labeled internal , while commonly used within arts that are labeled as external although used , developed for different purposes.

For work using a different method ie “internal “

The general class structure is designed to break down and clarify distinctions between what is labeled as internal and what is labeled as external . In most cases for those in the class depending on the teacher’s level of development it’s always quite interesting as it tends to challenge one’s reality in attempting to introduce a different one.

The process itself interesting to watch the many reactions of different people based on their personalities as their reality is challenged.

[Bao]

It is a difficult topic because of the vagaries of body types and the mental/mind component that drives/shapes the individual's physicality and body usage.

Agreed.

Most of what you outlined is something my boxing coaches stressed with all beginners. Even diaphragmatic recruitment and level hips was a part of what they taught, and I'm assuming all good boxing has the same foci.

I am sure they do. I have a great respect for higher level western boxing. Dempsey's Championship Boxing is very much a Xingyi handbook. And when I look at top boxers as Tyson and Ali, I see similar things to what we strive towards. Completely relaxed, effortless power. They don't have any problem breathing when they strike either. The main difference is that they build up "functional muscle mass" in shoulders and back. Boxers don't really strive to be able to "use more strength", but to build up mass.

So the body development is different. They can let their body mass fall together with and behind their punch.
But if you don't build up this kind of body, you need to use your whole body more "full". So it's here IMA whole body coordination have a practical function generating strength. IMA is a bit different when it come to store and release power. Boxers fall into the punch and twist with the hips. We try to store and release power from the whole body.

Also, telling someone to breath and relax is not really enough to teach someone. By fighting many rounds, pro boxers learn that they need to relax their breath to be able to keep going. But if you don't learn from that experience, it can be hard to really understand that relaxing and sinking the breath is important. IMHO, the internal arts have a very good advantage by the fact they are designed to teach the practitioner that relaxation is a skill.

And of course there is the mind aspect. I don't know how much emphasis boxing coaches put on keeping a blank, empty mind-state is really important if you want to be able to react fast and spontaneously. This also needs practice and can be quite hard to understand. If you don't experience it from some kind of meditation, how can you even get to know this mind-state? This is one reason why the Samurai meditated, to get to understand the mind-state they needed to survive real battles. So if there is one thing lacking in boxing... Nuff' said.

But then again, if IMA practitioners don’t spar or have no combat practice, they won't understand what aspects of their practice is valid in actual fighting and how. If they do, their training will have another, more practical focus.

Might have strayed a little off topic, but it's also directly related to how a class is structured when the focus is martial method.

I think it's pretty much on topic. I myself when I teach, I put a lot of emphasis on partner exercises and on punching right from the beginning. Some people might think this sounds shallow, or think that it endangers the deeper and meditative aspects of the practice. But I believe that you can go even deeper, and deeper faster, if you put your relaxation, balance and sensitivity into different tests. By testing yourself and by different reality checks you will understand your own limits better and know better what you need to work on. People rather just want to stay in a comfort zone and don't want to be taught about how much they suck, and they don't want to be reminded about it. But still — whatever you want to achieve in life, you need to be brutally honest with yourself and have a very clear idea about your own strengths and weaknesses.

[BruceP]

It is a difficult topic because of the vagaries of body types and the mental/mind component that drives/shapes the individual's physicality and body usage.

Agreed.

Most of what you outlined is something my boxing coaches stressed with all beginners. Even diaphragmatic recruitment and level hips was a part of what they taught, and I'm assuming all good boxing has the same foci.

I am sure they do. I have a great respect for higher level western boxing. Dempsey's Championship Boxing is very much a Xingyi handbook. And when I look at top boxers as Tyson and Ali, I see similar things to what we strive towards. Completely relaxed, effortless power. They don't have any problem breathing when they strike either. The main difference is that they build up "functional muscle mass" in shoulders and back. Boxers don't really strive to be able to "use more strength", but to build up mass.

So the body development is different. They can let their body mass fall together with and behind their punch.
But if you don't build up this kind of body, you need to use your whole body more "full". So it's here IMA whole body coordination have a practical function generating strength. IMA is a bit different when it come to store and release power. Boxers fall into the punch and twist with the hips. We try to store and release power from the whole body.

Also, telling someone to breath and relax is not really enough to teach someone. By fighting many rounds, pro boxers learn that they need to relax their breath to be able to keep going. But if you don't learn from that experience, it can be hard to really understand that relaxing and sinking the breath is important. IMHO, the internal arts have a very good advantage by the fact they are designed to teach the practitioner that relaxation is a skill.

And of course there is the mind aspect. I don't know how much emphasis boxing coaches put on keeping a blank, empty mind-state is really important if you want to be able to react fast and spontaneously. This also needs practice and can be quite hard to understand. If you don't experience it from some kind of meditation, how can you even get to know this mind-state? This is one reason why the Samurai meditated, to get to understand the mind-state they needed to survive real battles. So if there is one thing lacking in boxing... Nuff' said.

But then again, if IMA practitioners don’t spar or have no combat practice, they won't understand what aspects of their practice is valid in actual fighting and how. If they do, their training will have another, more practical focus.

Might have strayed a little off topic, but it's also directly related to how a class is structured when the focus is martial method.

I think it's pretty much on topic. I myself when I teach, I put a lot of emphasis on partner exercises and on punching right from the beginning. Some people might think this sounds shallow, or think that it endangers the deeper and meditative aspects of the practice. But I believe that you can go even deeper, and deeper faster, if you put your relaxation, balance and sensitivity into different tests. By testing yourself and by different reality checks you will understand your own limits better and know better what you need to work on. People rather just want to stay in a comfort zone and don't want to be taught about how much they suck, and they don't want to be reminded about it. But still — whatever you want to achieve in life, you need to be brutally honest with yourself and have a very clear idea about your own strengths and weaknesses.

Regarding your generalities of boxing in terms of mechanics and mindset; it's as varied as the individuals involved and you're using very broad strokes to paint over the subtleties of the individual characteristics of how boxers apply their practical method(s). Without going over all the points you raised in trying to show how boxing differs from IMA, I can tell you that showing how boxing differs from IMA is a red herring. The point was that what you originally outlined - aside from dantien - is what boxing coaches train their boxers to do. So there really isn't a difference between what you consider 'internal method' and sport boxing method.

I'd been boxing (and doing other full-contact sports) for more than 20 years before I started studying TJQ and none of what I learned about the training of internal martial art shared any similarities with those other activities.

It is a difficult topic because of the vagaries of body types and the mental/mind component that drives/shapes the individual's physicality and body usage.

I wrote that while considering this from your original reply to my questions re:

"...the main krux is to actually keep relaxed when you actually strike and meet a target, both body and mind, and not tense either mind or breath

because what you wrote there points to a common misunderstanding of many tjq teachers when they presume to 'teach' the art. All of those variables that each individual brings to the table are made irrelevant via Neutrality Principle.

Neutrality Principle is all-encompassing in every single aspect of the training of body and mind so there is no target, opponent, right or wrong, this or that, us and them, goals, paradigms, whys and wherefores,...

No Neutrality Principle - No Tai Chi

[Appledog]

what you wrote there points to a common misunderstanding of many tjq teachers when they presume to 'teach' the art. All of those variables that each individual brings to the table are made irrelevant via Neutrality Principle.

Neutrality Principle is all-encompassing in every single aspect of the training of body and mind so there is no target, opponent, right or wrong, this or that, us and them, goals, paradigms, whys and wherefores,...

No Neutrality Principle - No Tai Chi

I have never heard of the neutrality principle before, or maybe I didn't focus on it until now. Could you please give an example on how the neutrality principle is applied during the teaching or practice of tai chi?

[Subitai]

Origami; vs. tai chi for health.

I mean, I guess I get it. I just don't get it, lol.

I don't want to derail this thread with a holy war.

I appreciate learning more about the different perspectives people have on and approaches people bring to, the arts.

No, it's on topic. Barely, but it's on topic It has to do with the types of exercises and drills you do during the class. It's also not a holy war. The part of you that gets it is right, it's not a complex issue.

A few examples would be, Chen style has jumping kicks, as does Sun style. But Yang style in particular does not. And in that realm, Chen style has many more than Sun style. There are also far, far more fa-jing moves in Chen style. Second to that there is a well-defined second form which is full of attacking movements. Most people would say that tai chi is a defensive art; it can be taught that way, sure, but that is "less martial". It depends on the teacher I guess. Yang Cheng-Fu style has a bit of a bad rep for not being very martial as the purpose for it to be created was to focus on it's health aspects. And one of the reasons Dong style is considered a separate style today and not just someone who did Yang style is because of the martial reputation. They retained a lot of the martial training that is missing in many modern Yang schools.

As a result of this the training is very different. I do a lot of leg stretching and kick training in a Chen class. We don't do that in a Yang style class because it isn't as needed. I also tend not to teach standing or drilling single movements in a Yang class, but rather just work on correcting form. I am still somewhat debating whether or not Tantui should be taught as a foundation for Chen style. That just wouldn't fly in your average non-Chen class, but from what I heard this is done in some schools in Chen village.

Hey, I know i'm late reading this thread but as i came to this post I just wanted to comment on something that i have 1st hand knowledge of.

I can tell you guys from 1st hand experience meeting my Si Gung Sun Jianyun and training in Sun Style a story about that jump kick.

Back in 98' I was there with my sifu and we were in a park practicing Sun taiji. Then a young woman came to visit our group (she had some people escorting her in for an introduction) and there was a buzz about the crowd in chatting.

I asked my sifu whats going on? He said that the young woman had just recently won a Wushu Taiji Competition and the young lady had won with her Sun Style. One of her perks for winning was to meet SJY.

SJY was curious to see her form and we all watched. As soon as she saw the Jump Kick she became visibly upset.
She then explained to the officials that when she was consulted for her input as the creation of a Sun Style Compulsory form....she was adamant that NO JUMP KICK be placed in the form. That was NOT her fathers kung fu.

I was there, when she was visibly upset and she explained to all of of us about that Jump Kick.

You guys can take that for what it is. What I know from being a part of her lineage is...there is No Jump kick in the traditional Sun Taiji Form.

[Bao]

I was there, when she was visibly upset and she explained to all of of us about that Jump Kick.

You guys can take that for what it is. What I know from being a part of her lineage is...there is No Jump kick in the traditional Sun Taiji Form.

I believe you 100%. Makes sense. However, I have a vague memory that the jump kick was suggested as an alternative in Sun Jianyun's Sun own Tai Chi book. But I guess I must remember it wrong. I'll try to find it and have a look. Anyway, thank you for sharing.

[Trick]

the jump kick is part of the shaolin ”long-fist” exercise（s）that taijiquan form is/are based on. the longfist version is/was traditionally taught to beginners especially kids, when that foundation is laid one begins the taiji version, where eventually jumps and stomps are not necessary anymore in formal practice.
（for grownups/adults, builing an fundation with longfistic practice is not really necessary if the aim is learning taijiquan.）

[Appledog]

Interesting. This actually came up in our Sun style class last year. My teacher told me to stop doing the jumping kick. I of course kept doing it and got injured. Well..

The move in question is shown by Sun Jianyun at 4:08 to 4:15 in this video:



This move is a derivative of the following move in Chen style, which does not exist in Yang style:



Note that this move is usually performed as a jumping kick as follows:



My teacher explained the discrepancy as follows. When you get older you perform the kick as shown in the 1st and 2nd video so you do not cause yourself injury -- but the energy flow is the same or similar. it is acceptable not to perform a jump kick.

however, it is not entirely incorrect either. The idea that Sun Lutang or Sun Jianyun didn't do it as a jumping kick is fine.

The question I would have is given this, is it truly incorrect to perform it as a jumping kick -- and if so, why?

I would add that in our school we do a lot more than just Sun style so it is likely that we have some bleed over from (ex. chen style).

[origami_itto]

That kick is most definitely a part of Yang style.

We just usually do it while holding a knife

[Appledog]

That kick is most definitely a part of Yang style.

We just usually do it while holding a knife

You mean this form (ex. at 1:26)?



Well, it's a kick, but that one (assuming it's the one you mean) is a different move. I am not sure it could be converted into a jumping kick. Is there any example of someone doing it as a jumping kick?

[Doc Stier]

That kick is most definitely a part of Yang style.

We just usually do it while holding a knife

Just settling back here, drink in hand, anxiously awaiting the Yang Style TCC knife video with a jumping kick.

[origami_itto]

That kick is most definitely a part of Yang style.

We just usually do it while holding a knife

You mean this form (ex. at 1:26)?



Well, it's a kick, but that one (assuming it's the one you mean) is a different move. I am not sure it could be converted into a jumping kick. Is there any example of someone doing it as a jumping kick?

That's the weapon, but that form doesn't demonstrate the qualities that I would look to demonstrate in the practice.

That kick is most definitely a part of Yang style.

We just usually do it while holding a knife

Just settling back here, drink in hand, anxiously awaiting the Yang Style TCC knife video with a jumping kick.

Not about to film ME doing it, but will see if I can find it.

I found it, but it's an unlisted video shared with me privately. You can subscribe to Ray's patreon for as little as $5 for a month and watch 1:30-1:35 of the video called Tai-Chi Knife (Sabre) with Kerchief to see it.
https://www.patreon.com/rayhayward

Could just be a T.T. Liang thing, honestly. I'm not considering the Dong weapons here since they aren't, strictly speaking, Yang style.

[origami_itto]

That kick is most definitely a part of Yang style.

We just usually do it while holding a knife

Just settling back here, drink in hand, anxiously awaiting the Yang Style TCC knife video with a jumping kick.

FOUND ONE! what do I win? 1:31-1:33