What do you think about this Taiji?

[origami_itto]

I think there is a lot of temptation to say "this is what this move means" and then frame your practice around that. I think that GM Chang took that approach to his Taijiquan and it served him well, but I believe it is at a variance to the "original taijiquan" and winds up cultivating a slightly different skill set ultimately, but it's close enough to not matter much, particularly when so few exemplars of "authentic" taijiquan exist to show a better method.

Like I played around a very little bit with one of (John Wang's kungfu brother under GM Chang) Dave Picken's students/teachers under him and he would absolutely wipe the floor with 99% of the Taijiquan folks I know in open competition and probably push hands too, so...

[D_Glenn]

I knew it.

I should’ve known better than to use the word enlightened on rsf.

But, in my defense, I thought everyone knows that the CMA became CIMA when they started borrowing exercises from the Daoists because they figured out that they can help alleviate concussions and head trauma, which would prolong the amount of years that a martial artist could be actively fighting.

.

[everything]

Really liked the applications video.

No idea on the original form question.

[vadaga]

I think there is a lot of temptation to say "this is what this move means" and then frame your practice around that. I think that GM Chang took that approach to his Taijiquan and it served him well, but I believe it is at a variance to the "original taijiquan" and winds up cultivating a slightly different skill set ultimately, but it's close enough to not matter much, particularly when so few exemplars of "authentic" taijiquan exist to show a better method.

Like I played around a very little bit with one of (John Wang's kungfu brother under GM Chang) Dave Picken's students/teachers under him and he would absolutely wipe the floor with 99% of the Taijiquan folks I know in open competition and probably push hands too, so...

IIRC A friend of mine is also a student of Dave Pickens... it seemed like they had a very broad skillset in that school including some white crane stuff, shuai jiao, taiji, longfist, weapons etc. I remember when we were in Japan that the local judo club basically gave said friend a black belt on the spot when he started practicing with them.

[origami_itto]

I think there is a lot of temptation to say "this is what this move means" and then frame your practice around that. I think that GM Chang took that approach to his Taijiquan and it served him well, but I believe it is at a variance to the "original taijiquan" and winds up cultivating a slightly different skill set ultimately, but it's close enough to not matter much, particularly when so few exemplars of "authentic" taijiquan exist to show a better method.

Like I played around a very little bit with one of (John Wang's kungfu brother under GM Chang) Dave Picken's students/teachers under him and he would absolutely wipe the floor with 99% of the Taijiquan folks I know in open competition and probably push hands too, so...

IIRC A friend of mine is also a student of Dave Pickens... (just texted him to confirm) it seemed like they had a very broad skillset in that school including some white crane stuff, shuai jiao, taiji, longfist, weapons etc. I remember when we were in Japan that the local judo club basically gave him a black belt on the spot when he started practicing with them.

I recorded our conversation. Got too dark to film any play. Going to clean it up soon and get the ok to share.

[yeniseri]

As I noted in a thread some time ago, most, if not all of taiji was done at a 'faster and varied pace' and it tells me that
all the slow moving current display of taiji is post 1950, where most people did not know about it and hence the Beijing
Institute of Sport and Physical Culture used SImplifed Taijiquan aka 24shitaijiquan as the standard, and so it remains to this day!

The first thread representation was a way that taiji was spread because that is how I initially learned it but I had no idea at the time
the implication of training and the lack of martial insight. Again, taiji is diffeent things to different people and though the twain shall never meet,
it is all good in the eye of the beholder! This is the best way to sow harmony despite the chasm that exists.

My taiji is really bad and I like it so !

[Appledog]

Wait, so people are starting to realize that the one long slow form (or worse, one short slow form) is maybe 20% of what you need to get good at Tai Chi?

[windwalker]

Many people cannot meet the requirements, regardless of the speed of their practice when examined..
often reinforced in competitive push hands competitions....

Hard to help them to correct their practice for those interested, when what they do tends to work in the competitions
often does not in meeting others with skill sets based on a different idea, different focus...

The mind has no speed limit.

Takes a while to understand what “qi” leads the body means.

“First in mind “ as to why the practice in general is slow

As to the OP question

The person looks pretty good, his movements are good, his idea is backwards
If he’s claiming that what he does is taiji...


It is quite interesting.

[johnwang]

Should Taiji training be always slow? Should Taiji also have fast training?

[wayne hansen]

Speed is irrelevant
A fast form can be done slow
It is about the size of the circles for combat
A slow form no matter how quick it is done will never be a combat form

[Doc Stier]

Many people cannot meet the requirements, regardless of the speed of their practice when examined..
often reinforced in competitive push hands competitions....

Hard to help them to correct their practice for those interested, when what they do tends to work in the competitions
often does not in meeting others with skill sets based on a different idea, different focus...

Ain't that the truth! It is oftentimes very difficult, if not impossible, to teach someone something which they think they already know, even when their experience against others with greater skill repeatedly proves that they don't, revealing a huge gap between their assumed intellectual understanding and their actual practical application capability.

[Bao]

Should Taiji training be always slow? Should Taiji also have fast training?

Slow and fast practice have different purposes. You should practice what you need. Tai Chi should have faster training than slow, but form practice doesn't need or should be very fast. If you look at old Wu (jianquan) clips, Hao and Sun Tai Chi, form practice can be done quite fast, this pace is enough. If you practice form too fast, the practice loses its meaning. If you really want to practice speed, you can practice speed punches against a bag.

[Appledog]

Many people cannot meet the requirements, regardless of the speed of their practice when examined..
often reinforced in competitive push hands competitions....

Then the competitions are faulty.

Hard to help them to correct their practice for those interested, when what they do tends to work in the competitions
often does not in meeting others with skill sets based on a different idea, different focus...

Often they don't really want to correct their practice.

But how can someone know what to want, if they do not know what it is?

Maybe the idea of wanting, of desire, is the problem, and that it must be abandoned before one can truly learn.

If that is the case I think the solution is very easy, just tell them to read the da xue and they will understand.

The mind has no speed limit.

Takes a while to understand what “qi” leads the body means.

“First in mind “ as to why the practice in general is slow

My teacher says these things a lot. Hmm

[everything]

something which they think they already know, even when their experience against others with greater skill repeatedly proves that they don't, revealing a huge gap between their assumed intellectual understanding and their actual practical application capability.

- it's very difficult to know you don't know. humans are clever so we think we understand the "data"/phenomena
- some (most ... nearly all) people haven't actually experienced "interesting" phenomena
- once you do, it doesn't really necessarily mean you can learn it, even when shown by a teacher. otherwise, there would be overwhelming empirical evidence many people have "learned".
- it's quite hard to deal with cognitive dissonance
- it's quite hard to let go of "conventional strength"
- it should be very, very easy to know if one has movement talents (think about the people who were multi-sport athletes and great at all of them ... if you can be honest with yourself on whether you have that level of talent ... you should be able to know. it's probably also easy to delude oneself. i play simple futbol with idiots who think they are better than they are to all of us; i'm sure i'm like that, too).
- it seems very, very hard empirically and introspectively to know if someone has "internal" talent. there isn't some "large dataset", and it's not visible.
- if people have deluded themselves on their outward movement abilities and talents, and have a very hard time knowing their "internal" ability/talent, it's going to be incredibly difficult to have some idea of "IMA" ability.
- it's very hard to tell if people even talk about the same thing. it seems extremely likely that's not the case.
- this all makes it nearly impossible to discuss.

[yeniseri]

Wait, so people are starting to realize that the one long slow form (or worse, one short slow form) is maybe 20% of what you need to get good at Tai Chi?

This was never the issue. Being "good at taiji" is not a singular endeavour. I was never good at nandu gymnastic performance taiji at
competition but I laud anyone who excelled at it. It gratified them and that is wonderful. Then you have those who may seek health and they
benefitted from it in some way. Then you have the Taoist Taiji, another realm of attachment and that is all good

I know a few people who excel at the martial element and they only know/adapted Beijing24shitaijiquan (reference only )and similar 'short' taiji version but they can hold their own against anyone in their own way but it is within what was called and often repeated as 'liuhebafa' principle, which is lacking today, even in my own limited view.