Chen style practical method interview

[GrahamB]

Hi,

I interviewed RSFs very own TwoCircles for this one. Enjoy!

https://open.spotify.com/episode/6N9th9 ... 4e53ec4019

[twocircles13]

Graham,

Thanks for the invitation and interview. I hope someone will find something beneficial from the interview.

One thing I like about the Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method is that one could take a majority of the principles taught and beneficially apply them to any style of taijiquan. Even some related martial arts would be enhanced. That’s the nature of deep principles.

[origami_itto]

I loved it! Just keep forgetting to come back and say so.

[origami_itto]

I especially liked what you had to say about comparing notes because nobody has everything. Things have been lost in the lineages, but different lineages have lost different things.

[windwalker]

Nice interview....

talking vs doing or showing

@ twocircles13

interesting thoughts...you might find some interest regarding

ZMP
"It specifies the point with respect to which reaction forces at the contacts between the feet and the ground do not produce any moment in the horizontal direction"

[twocircles13]

Yes, it was a podcast, which is only auditory. That’s the nature of the beast. I kept making hand gestures and moving in my seat to demonstrate what I was talking about.

You have a point that words alone can have multiple interpretations. I once read a description the goals and principles of a karate system. It would have been a great description of taijiquan or any IMA. However, the methods to achieve those ideals were very different.

Video is great, but ultimately there is no substitute for hands-on. I do my best to only talk the talk only if I can walk the walk, as they say. Having said that, I am not perfect nor have my skills in taijiquan finished developing. I hope.

@windwalker
Thanks for the ZMP reference. My thesis for my masters degree was regarding sway during standing, so I referenced ZMP although it was not a critical part of my research. I am not sure how you are applying it to taijiquan or what in the interview trigged your thoughts on this topic.

[Bob]

Very useful interview and thank you Graham.

Twocircles13 - I'm wondering if you have any insights into the story about GM Liu and Chen Fake. I heard this long before Chen style taijiquan reached the Taste of China Chen Xiaowang performances.

Chen Fake and Liu Yunqiao met at a Military institute in Beijing in 1928 and spent a day exchanging material. Liu was struck by how similar the Chen style that Chen Fake demonstrated was to the baji that he demonstrated. Nothing more was ever detailed in explanation other than something about fajin expression. When I started in Wutan only in-the-door disciples were permitted to learn baji and was told to take up the Chen taiji because it was similar in nature to the baji - after years of thinking about it I am not sure about this and see Liu Yunqiao's baji closer in nature to Xing Yi.

Any insights into this would be appreciated - there seems to be some variation in the baji practices of Wutan among the various branches.

[twocircles13]

Very useful interview and thank you Graham.

Twocircles13 - I'm wondering if you have any insights into the story about GM Liu and Chen Fake. I heard this long before Chen style taijiquan reached the Taste of China Chen Xiaowang performances.

Chen Fake and Liu Yunqiao met at a Military institute in Beijing in 1928 and spent a day exchanging material. Liu was struck by how similar the Chen style that Chen Fake demonstrated was to the baji that he demonstrated. Nothing more was ever detailed in explanation other than something about fajin expression. When I started in Wutan only in-the-door disciples were permitted to learn baji and was told to take up the Chen taiji because it was similar in nature to the baji - after years of thinking about it I am not sure about this and see Liu Yunqiao's baji closer in nature to Xing Yi.

Any insights into this would be appreciated - there seems to be some variation in the baji practices of Wutan among the various branches.

Yes, I heard the story similarly. The only additions I might be able to make was that it was not in public, and that there was a significant amount of hands-on exchange and instruction, not just demonstrating forms. I do not remember a record of this exchange through my line from Chen Fake’s perspective, however.

When I heard the story, I assumed, since in 1928 Chen Fake had just arrived in Beijing, that this was two young guys comparing notes, but Liu was about 19 and Chen was about 40. Liu was in the midst of establishing his reputation as a fighter. Chen, while skilled, was just starting to develop a reputation in Beijing as a teacher. So, it must have been a bit of an odd exchange.

There is certainly common ground and probably roots between Chen Taijiquan, Bajiquan and Xingyiquan. All three produced highly skilled spearmen, for example, and the spear/long staff is an important training tool for developing power in each system.

On a personal level, Chen Zhonghua caught my attention because his fajing was very close to what I had learned with Wutan. There’s a lot of coiling and rotation in Baji. My studies in Chen Taijiquan have taught me how I might use that. Of course, it has utterly corrupted my Baji, which was at quite a low level to begin with. And, applying Chen Style Practical Method rules of movement has breathed new life into Du Yuzi’s Chen Yanxi form that I learned. In Baji training, we learned drill where we would body slam into each other, reminiscent of the Bump dance from the 1970s, but full body. This seemed to be conditioning. A few years later in a workshop with Chen Zhonghua, we were doing the same exercise, but he was teaching us about timing.

There’s a lot more than that, but, yes, I think there is a lot of common ground and complementary training between Taijiquan and Bajiquan. There appears to be a lot in common with Xingyiquan too. I just haven’t trained Xingyi to definitively say.

[D_Glenn]

Bob, when I witnessed wutan baji he was using what Chen taiji calls ‘Xiong Yao Zhedie’ (chest waist folding). But doing it back to back in the same strike. First the fingers stab using just a normal ‘chongji’ (basic hit), then a Bolangjin movement of the spine, then as the hand fnishes rolling into a fist and the arm extends straight, a Fanlang jin movement of the spine happens. It’s 3 forces within 1 strike. But the type of loose shocking power required to get this all happening definitely looked a lot like Chen.
In this video most of these Fali are using Bolangjin but some you can see he’s tucking first and then doing fanlang jin.

[windwalker]

@windwalker
Thanks for the ZMP reference. My thesis for my masters degree was regarding sway during standing, so I referenced ZMP although it was not a critical part of my research. I am not sure how you are applying it to taijiquan or what in the interview trigged your thoughts on this topic.

My line of taiji could be said to be reflective of the Wang Yongquan methods ...practices ect.
based on my teacher's approach


In reference to ZMP

"It specifies the point with respect to which reaction forces at the contacts between the feet and the ground do not produce any moment in the horizontal direction, i.e., the point where the sum of horizontal inertia and gravity forces is zero"

I find it helps to explain and define the "timing" of a step...

In taiji for example we use this concept



Translation google

"Ten: Inefficiency and Unsmooth Rotation; Resulting in Needless Prolongation of the Transformation Process, Failing to Achieve Simultaneous Foot Movement with Body Changes.

The application of the vertical line in the body and its connection to points two and four are crucial for the correct execution of the boxing posture. Thus, below the posture diagram, a graph illustrating the relationship between the vertical line in the body and the placement of the feet is attached. Those with a keen interest should ponder it carefully; it should be known that it is not a mere fabrication.

Eleven: Straight Line in the Body and the Importance of the Pendulum

Although the vertical line in the body and the pendulum occupy the same position in the body, their functions are not the same. The vertical line in the body, in conjunction with points two and four, creates a distinction between substantial and insubstantial in the legs. The vertical line in the body cannot be raised or lowered but only swung directly forward, backward, left, or right. When the body is upright, the use of the vertical line in the body allows the form to achieve an erect and unbiased posture of "a single line up and down." When practicing Tai Chi, it enables "waist and hips level, hands and feet advancing together." With deep practice, the vertical line in the body will expand and become more agile in its swinging."


ZMP a way to understand what was written in use along with other things, can and does cause some interesting body reactions among those encountering it, questioned in many of the videos I sometimes post
in an effort to clarify, without being too verbose not writer...

you did mention people getting sick from the interactions...quite interesting as this was a common occurrence in China in myself and others in interactions with our teacher... Of course it was attributed to other things going on, not necessarily needing contact to cause...

did find the commonality and explanation interesting...

[Bob]

Thank you D_Glenn & Twocircles13

Been posting too many years here and have to watch for my redundant/repeat questions - thanks for your responses - in our very early baji days, we trained for relaxed execution until impact - many of us, including myself, took a long time to get it LOL - da qiang exercises were and are critical including relaxed execution and co-ordinated breathing - our baji ma bu was relaxed upper body solid lower body as were many of the other stances used in training.

As you point out the big spear training seems to be a common thread running among baji, xing yi and both Yang and Chen style taijiquan.

I am familiar with Xing Yi da qiang training but have only seen the big pole training in Chen and Yang Taijiquan

[KongFuGongFu]

I really enjoyed this podcast and found it insightful, though I disagree that the taiji method is lost, or that if it was, we would need to come together somehow and find it again. It just sounds like another instance of worshipping the past. Granted, the ancestors were skilled, but so were plenty of their descendants... if the real thing was in the past, lineage would be futile and evolution would be impossible.

It's also interesting that this idea is mentioned, if I remember correctly, alongside the idea that putting a personal spin on the art is a mistake, or some people received an incomplete transmission. If that's so, what are we to make of Chen Zhonghua's, let alone Hong Junsheng's, own idiosyncrasies, or the origin story of PM?

No disrespect to PM. I just think this art should evolve, and it's only natural that it would eventually branch off into slightly different directions or flavors. We can accept that these different "Taijiquan" arts do the "Taiji" part differently. Chen Zhonghua's conception of Taiji is very interesting and thought provoking, and maybe it could have application in a different line, but if that line is well-defined, it probably won't yield the same result if other concepts or methods are being used.

[wayne hansen]

I wonder if the training done in the manner of the above clip causes micro concussions and can lead to brain damage

[twocircles13]

I really enjoyed this podcast and found it insightful, though I disagree that the taiji method is lost, or that if it was, we would need to come together somehow and find it again. It just sounds like another instance of worshipping the past. Granted, the ancestors were skilled, but so were plenty of their descendants... if the real thing was in the past, lineage would be futile and evolution would be impossible.

Thanks for the comment and your kind words.

I think I said if we are not careful we will lose the skills of taijiquan. I agree that there are pockets of good quality taijiquan that still exist, and I agree that the art can and needs to evolve. What I am saying is that the infighting and tribalism within practitioners, branches, and styles is not going to help preserve our art. My experience has been that mutual respect and an open mind can even enhance and support our own training even if that source is from another style. I am not suggesting that we should merge styles or even branches, just that we can learn from each other.

Thanks for pointing out that this was not clear.

It's also interesting that this idea is mentioned, if I remember correctly, alongside the idea that putting a personal spin on the art is a mistake, or some people received an incomplete transmission. If that's so, what are we to make of Chen Zhonghua's, let alone Hong Junsheng's, own idiosyncrasies, or the origin story of PM?

I don’t know what you picked up on. I think it's important put sufficient time and effort in to become proficient in an art, in what your teacher is teaching, before trying to change it. Personality, knowledge, body characteristics and such are always going to enter into training, so a student’s art will always have his or her own fingerprint and be somewhat different that the teacher’s, but hopefully those differences are only superficial until proficiency is attained. After you are proficient in and art it is yours. Do what you want with it. However, I do not remember discussing this subject in the interview.

No disrespect to PM. I just think this art should evolve, and it's only natural that it would eventually branch off into slightly different directions or flavors. We can accept that these different "Taijiquan" arts do the "Taiji" part differently. Chen Zhonghua's conception of Taiji is very interesting and thought provoking, and maybe it could have application in a different line, but if that line is well-defined, it probably won't yield the same result if other concepts or methods are being used.

Chen Fake, Hong Junsheng, Chen Zhonghua, and I all agreed that the art should evolve, with the caveats I listed above and maybe a few others, so there is no disrespect taken. What did I say that would indicate otherwise?

Of course, I would maintain that these teachers primarily modified the teaching method of the art, not the core of the art itself, though that has been done in the past.

My view is from a biomechanical and neuromuscular perspective, my observation is that the Practical Method has the biomechanics and the neuromuscular firing sequences right. So, I think there’s something every taiji practitioner, regardless or instructor, branch, or style could learn that would improve their own art, of course, at the appropriate time.

[twocircles13]

I wonder if the training done in the manner of the above clip causes micro concussions and can lead to brain damage

Possibly, you have to be careful with this type of fajing. There are precise rules that you do not want to violate.