Old thread about Chen Wangting / Xinyi connections MoGou

[twocircles13]

Read the following discussion thread

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?65564-Changhuxinyimen-(Songshan-sect)

It ties together some info, showing how why there is XYQ and TongBei material in Chen martial arts.

Also, this article connects as well:

http://chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/TJQorigins.html

The Chen Yi Lu set (and thus the Yang) closely follows each posture in the same order, as in the Shaolin set Shaolin Xinyi Quan - 心意拳 (Heart Mind Boxing) / Xie Quan - 斜拳 (Slanting Boxing).
The articles would make it make sense, making it the root of Chen TJQ Yi Lu.

The Er Lu Pao Chui set, on the other hand, has many similar postures/movements of MoGou village Shaolin Hong Quan (from late 1500s)
And it would be one of the sets learned by Chen Wangting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgJttTq7OfE

I understand that a list of movement names from a form can be sort of like a DNA to track its evolution, especially if you can get closely related forms.

I have a spreadsheet listing several exemplar sets of the Thirteen Postures (Yilu) of all the styles of taijiquan. Using Chinese names it is very, very clear how related all the styles of taijiquan are even though there are now variations in how the movements are done. The evolution becomes informative if you ask why the changes were made and what were they trying to teach.

Do you have the lists of form names to which you refer, in Chinese, so we may compare also.

Other than that, I feel like I have entered late into a conversation and do not know to what you are referring.

Also, you have missed this thread discussing the Li Family manuals from the Tang Village. Members asserted that they were fakes. Would you like to share your evidence of authenticity.

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=30332&sid=20f526d3b268e0244f790195369c470e

Thanks

[salcanzonieri]

I have this file with Chinese Characters comparing the various TJQ styles, etc

http://bgtent.com/naturalcma/images/TJQ ... 20only.pdf

For the Xie Quan I have:

Shaolin Xinyi Quan - 心意拳 (Heart Mind Boxing) / Xie Quan - 斜拳 (Slanting Boxing)

预备式 (Yù Bèi Shì) - Ready Stance

Section 1
1. 混元一气 (Hun Yuan Yi Qi) – Primordial One Qi
2. 黃龙出水 (Huáng Lóng Chū Shuǐ) - Yellow Dragon Exits Water
3. 跄步单鞭 (Qiang Bu Dan Bian) - Rapid Step Single Whip
4. 金刚捣碓 (Jīngāng Dǎo Duì) - Jin Gang (Temple Guard) Pounds with the Pestle
5. 劈山式 (Pi Shan Shi)- Split Mountain Stance/Style
6. 斜形 (Xie Xing) – Slant Shape
7. 拗手 (Ao Shou) – Bent Hand
8. 劈山式 (Pi Shan Shi) - Split Mountain Stance/Style
9. 斜形 (Xie Xing) – Slant Shape
10. 拗手 (Ao Shou) – Bent Hand
11. 满天挑 (Men Tian Tiao) - Full Heavenly Load Carried
12. 打虎式 (Da Hu Shi) - Beat Tiger Stance/Style (fierce beating)

Section 2
13. 右七星 (You Qi Xing) – Right Seven Star
14. 连环捶 一 (Lian Huan Chui Yi) – Continuous Hammer 1
15. 连环捶 二 (Lian Huan Chui Er) – Continuous Hammer 2
16. 串连捶 (Chuan Lian Chui) - String Linked (Connected) Hammers
17. 单鞭(Dān Biān) - Single Whip
18. 劈山式 (Pi Shan Shi) - Split Mountain Stance/Style
19. 斜形 (Xie Xing) – Slant Shape
20. 拗手 (Ao Shou) – Bending Hands (crouching)
21. 猴猿獻果 (Hou Yuan Xian Guo) – Monkey Ape (Gibbon) Offers Fruit
22. 玉女捧金盒 (Yu Nu Peng Jin He) - Jade Lady Holds up Golden Box

Section 3
23. 云顶 左靠山 (Yun Ding, Zuo Kao Shan) – Cloud Peak, Left Lean on Mountain)
24. 右靠山 (You Kao Shan) – Right Lean on Mountain
25. 偷 步揺山 (Tou Bu, Yao Shan) - Thief Step, Swing/Shake Mountain
26. 高探马 (Gāo Tàn Mǎ) - High Pat Horse
27. 右飞脚(You Fei Jiao) - Right Flying Foot
28. 左飞脚 (Zuo Fei Jiao) - Left Flying Foot
29. 单鞭 (Dān Biān) - Single Whip
30. 前后轰 (Qian Hou Hong) - Forward Backward Blast
31. 野马分鬃 (Yě Mǎ Fēn Zōnɡ) - Wild Horse Parts its Mane
32. 赶马三捶 (Gan Ma, San Chui) – Pursuing Horse, Three Hammers
33. 展手 (Zhan Shou) - Unfolding Hand
34. 十字手 (Shi Zi Shou) – Cross Hands

Section 4
35. 蹲虎 (Dun Hu) - Crouching Tiger
36. 金鸡独立 (Jīn Jī Dú Lì) - Golden Rooster Independently Stands
37. 二起脚 (Er Qi Jiao) – Two Lifting Feet
38. 金猿展眼 (Jin Hou Zhan Yan) – Golden Ape Unfolds (into) Eyes
39. 托抢式 (Tuo Qiang Shi) – Support (with palms) Snatching Stance/Style
40. 盘虎肘 (Pan Hu Zhou) – Flat Tiger (fierce) Elbow
41. 霸王观阵 (Bo Wang Guan Zhen ) – Bo Wang Observes (row of) Troops
42. 左弹踢 (Zuo Tan Tui) - Left Spring Kick
43. 对七星 (Dui Qi Xing) – Facing Seven Star
44. 起身横踹 (Qi Shen, Heng Chuai) - Lift Body, Across (horizontal) Trampling kick
45. 劈山式 (Pi Shan Shi) - Split Mountain Stance/Style
46. 包步撕 (Bao Bu, Si) – Wrapping Step, Tear
47. 通背捶 (Tong Bei Chui) – Through the Back Hammers
48. 震 脚式 (Zhen Jiao Shi) - Earthquake Foot Stance/Style
49. 白蛇吐信 (Bái Shé Tǔ Xin) – White Snake Spits out Letter

Section 5
50. 左靠山 (Zuo Kao Shan) – Left Lean on Mountain
51. 右靠山 (You Kao Shan) – Right Lean on Mountain
52. 老虎出穴 (Lao Hu Chu Xue) – Old Tiger Exits Cave
53. 鷂字钻林 (Yao Zhi Zuan Lin) – Sparrow Hawk Pierces the Forest
54. 双摆莲 (Shuang Bai Lian)- Double Swinging Lotus (kick)
55. 下式 (Xia Shi) – Descending Stance/Style
56. 冲天炮 (Chong Tian Bao) – Soar to Heaven Cannon
57. 单鞭 (Dān Biān) - Single Whip
58. 回头望 月(Hui Tuo Wang Yue) – Turn Back Head, Look towards the Moon
59. 单鞭 (Dān Biān) - Single Whip
60. 劈山式 (Pi Shan Shi) - Split Mountain Stance/Style
61. 斜形 (Xie Xing) – Slant Shape
62. 拗手 (Ao Shou) – Bending Hands
63. 猴猿獻果 (Hou Yuan Xian Guo) – Monkey Ape (Gibbon) Offers Fruit
64. 玉女捧金盒 (Yu Nu Peng Jin He) - Jade Lady Holds up Golden Box

Section 6
65. 云顶 左靠山 (Yun Ding, Zuo Kao Shan) – Cloud Peak, Left Lean on Mountain)
66. 右靠山 (You Kao Shan) – Right Lean on Mountain
67. 偷 步揺山 (Tou Bu Yao Shan) - Thief Step, Swing/Shake Mountain
68. 高探马 (Gāo Tàn Mǎ) - High Pat on Horse
69. 白马跪道 (Bai Ma Gui Dao) – White Horse Kneels on the Path
70. 十字脚 (Shi Zi Jiao) – Cross Kick
71. 倒步云顶 (Dao Bu, Yun Ding) – Inverted Step, Cloud Peak
72. 斜单鞭 (Xie Dān Biān) – Slanted Single Whip
73. 左七星 (Zuo Qi Xing) – Left Seven Star
74. 十字手 (Shi Zi Shou) – Cross Hands
75. 跨虎 (Kua Hu) – Ride the Tiger
76. 白鹤晾翅 (Bai He Liang Chi) – White Crane Dries its Wings
77. 霸王举鼎 (Bo Wang Ju Ding) – Bo Wang Heaves the Cauldron
78. 十字掌 (Shi Zi Zhuang) – Cross Palms
79. 弯弓射虎 (Wan Gong She Hu) - Bend the Bow, Shoot the Tiger
80. 收式 (Shōu Shì) Closing Stance/Style

[twocircles13]

Thanks for linking the table and posting the list of form names.

What was the source of the Shaolin Xinyi Quan list?

You also do not have the sources of the forms in the table. Are those available?

Also do you have videos of anyone performing these forms?

[salcanzonieri]

Thanks for linking the table and posting the list of form names.

What was the source of the Shaolin Xinyi Quan list?

You also do not have the sources of the forms in the table. Are those available?

Also do you have videos of anyone performing these forms?

Source for the Xinyi Quan/Xie Quan is Chinese language book
Shaolin Wu Shu, 1984, 1987
Page 30-83
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL30954574M/Shao_lin_wu_shu

Source of the forms in the table are found in any Tai Ji school list of forms, in other words, Google.
Also, whatever I have listed here in bibliography of all the books I used in my articles:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/shaolin-bibliography.html

[twocircles13]

Thanks for linking the table and posting the list of form names.

What was the source of the Shaolin Xinyi Quan list?

You also do not have the sources of the forms in the table. Are those available?

Also do you have videos of anyone performing these forms?

Source for the Xinyi Quan/Xie Quan is Chinese language book
Shaolin Wu Shu, 1984, 1987
Page 30-83
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL30954574M/Shao_lin_wu_shu

Source of the forms in the table are found in any Tai Ji school list of forms, in other words, Google.
Also, whatever I have listed here in bibliography of all the books I used in my articles:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/shaolin-bibliography.html

Thank you for citing your sources.

It looks like all of these are modern forms, so it is likely that the forms have developed and modified fairly recently. This is certainly true of Chen Taijiquan. So, the best we can say is that these forms are related. How they are related would require looking at individual differences and trying to trace back when changes in the forms took place.

You’ve posted some videos, but it would be helpful to have videos pre-wushu, so that influence is removed. Videos of practitioners who learned pre-kuoshu would also be informative. I know these are rare, but there are a few. As long as we know the modern influences on the forms, they might be informative.

As my Wutan teacher frequently quoted when history or form comparisons arose. “Chinese martial arts are all sones of the same mother.” So, we should expect to see lots of relationships. That is especially true when we consider the likely dissemination paths.

[Trick]

Thanks for linking the table and posting the list of form names.

What was the source of the Shaolin Xinyi Quan list?

You also do not have the sources of the forms in the table. Are those available?

Also do you have videos of anyone performing these forms?

Source for the Xinyi Quan/Xie Quan is Chinese language book
Shaolin Wu Shu, 1984, 1987
Page 30-83
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL30954574M/Shao_lin_wu_shu

That link doesn’t open for me.
1984, 1987- This was when the Shaolin craze had begun after jet lei’s blockbuster movie -shaolin.
Can we be sure forms as Shaolin-xinyiquan isn’t newly created forms promotional for the modern shaolin temple ?
What older sources/works does your “Shaolin-wushu” book make reference too ?

[salcanzonieri]

Thanks for linking the table and posting the list of form names.

What was the source of the Shaolin Xinyi Quan list?

You also do not have the sources of the forms in the table. Are those available?

Also do you have videos of anyone performing these forms?

Source for the Xinyi Quan/Xie Quan is Chinese language book
Shaolin Wu Shu, 1984, 1987
Page 30-83
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL30954574M/Shao_lin_wu_shu

Source of the forms in the table are found in any Tai Ji school list of forms, in other words, Google.
Also, whatever I have listed here in bibliography of all the books I used in my articles:
http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/shaolin-bibliography.html

Thank you for citing your sources.

It looks like all of these are modern forms, so it is likely that the forms have developed and modified fairly recently. This is certainly true of Chen Taijiquan. So, the best we can say is that these forms are related. How they are related would require looking at individual differences and trying to trace back when changes in the forms took place.

You’ve posted some videos, but it would be helpful to have videos pre-wushu, so that influence is removed. Videos of practitioners who learned pre-kuoshu would also be informative. I know these are rare, but there are a few. As long as we know the modern influences on the forms, they might be informative.

As my Wutan teacher frequently quoted when history or form comparisons arose. “Chinese martial arts are all sones of the same mother.” So, we should expect to see lots of relationships. That is especially true when we consider the likely dissemination paths.

What do you mean modern forms? The Shaolin forms in that book are taken from a family manual from the 1700s.
Nothing modern, if you are meaning modern Chinese Gov't created WuShu, which has nothing to do with the general term Wu Shu, which just means martial arts, literally.
Researchers from France, who wrote a book, went to the village that still practice Xie Quan and did side by side comparisons of Chen and Xie Quan. Xie means slanted, as is used in Chen TJQ posture done with Brush knee. These researchers also looked at the original 1700s manual passed down in a local family, and they also compared it to the Shaolin WuShu 1984 book, and said it was the same form. I showed all their info in my book, including the graphics.

This answers Trick's last post as well.
It is NOT a modern form, its been documented in a family manual which was from the 1700s, so it existed before that. The family member had studied in Shaolin in the 1700s. The French researchers verified this in person. The author of the 1984 Shaolin WuShu book also did. The book features other Shaolin forms that were very ancient, such as the Zhao KuanYin Lao Hong Quan forms 1 to 4. Very rare.
There have been previous threads about the French researchers in the forum.

The Taiji forms are the standard Taiji forms. If you call late 1700s-1800s modern, I guess so.

[Trick]

a boxing manual handed down since the 1700- hundred within a village family, im not saying it cant be....but.

1988, first time i came to China, on my schedule was visiting the great wall. While at the wall an old man came up to me, in his hand he held a big stone, it was almost greener than green, it was a family treasure handed.down for generations he explained, but now he had to sell it because he was very poor.
The Great-Wall tour guide shoved him away.

[salcanzonieri]

a boxing manual handed down since the 1700- hundred within a village family, im not saying it cant be....but.

1988, first time i came to China, on my schedule was visiting the great wall. While at the wall an old man came up to me, in his hand he held a big stone, it was almost greener than green, it was a family treasure handed.down for generations he explained, but now he had to sell it because he was very poor.
The Great-Wall tour guide shoved him away.

Yeah well, many villages all around the Shaolin area radius practice many Shaolin forms, and these have been documented and verified in person by many researchers in China.
Some villages, such as MoGou have been doing Shaolin since 1500s. Shaolin also has records. Dengfeng also has been doing Shaolin forms almost as long.
Local names have been cross referenced between Shaolin and the villages and have been verified, such as the infamous Li JiYu.
The French researches verified that Xie Quan / XIn Yi Quan form in person. And it is practiced in other places near Shaolin, who teach it. Videos of it were online.
They wrote a book about it in France. They used to have a website that showed side by side comparison with Chen Yi Lu, with photos and drawings.
Its the same form other villagers practiced elsewhere.

Chen village is only 50 KM away from Shaolin. Chen Family papers say Chen WangTing went to MoGou and learned old Shaolin forms. Chen village doesn't dispute the Shaolin origin of their form postures.

[Trick]

a boxing manual handed down since the 1700- hundred within a village family, im not saying it cant be....but.

1988, first time i came to China, on my schedule was visiting the great wall. While at the wall an old man came up to me, in his hand he held a big stone, it was almost greener than green, it was a family treasure handed.down for generations he explained, but now he had to sell it because he was very poor.
The Great-Wall tour guide shoved him away.

Yeah well, many villages all around the Shaolin area radius practice many Shaolin forms, and these have been documented and verified in person by many researchers in China.
Some villages, such as MoGou have been doing Shaolin since 1500s. Shaolin also has records. Dengfeng also has been doing Shaolin forms almost as long.
Local names have been cross referenced between Shaolin and the villages and have been verified, such as the infamous Li JiYu.
The French researches verified that Xie Quan / XIn Yi Quan form in person. And it is practiced in other places near Shaolin, who teach it. Videos of it were online.
They wrote a book about it in France. They used to have a website that showed side by side comparison with Chen Yi Lu, with photos and drawings.
Its the same form other villagers practiced elsewhere.

Chen village is only 50 KM away from Shaolin. Chen Family papers say Chen WangTing went to MoGou and learned old Shaolin forms. Chen village doesn't dispute the Shaolin origin of their form postures.

Yeah, lot of kung-fu/wushu happened in late 70's/early 80's in China, not that everyone was kung fu fighting but enough of them to make an broader national impact.
In early 1900 famous masters from.the metropolitan areas of China visiting shaolin with surrounding could not find anthing worthwhile, maybe a fragmented form here and there but empty as the locals rice bowls.was. struggling for food rather than eating bitter kung fu, perhaps even the treasured kung fu manual desperatly went into the fire to keep it going in the cold of the winter.....