the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

the stories always talk about how fast the bgz folks move.

.... so .... are you literally "walking" the circle super fast at times? more like yang taiji speed? something else? all of the above?

Walking the Circle is jibengong-a training conditioning routine to accustom the musculoskeletal system to the work it will be doing in
accomplishing the actions of the 8 Palm variations. Apparently, and from my limited recollection, bapangzhang initially had a faster walking
conditiioning pace but it was slowed down by Dong Haiquan to fit neoDaoist yangsheng criteria while training the martial elements at that time period.

i'm just assuming to get the reputation of moving so fast, they had to practice fast walking and/or fast steps. "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" but eventually you have to go really fast.

for funsies today, i did circle "jogging". no palm changes, just holding "mother palms". still seems very good for the "woo woo" qigong aspect to me.

”slow” to get everything in place, then the correct speedy fast comes naturally ?
im just guessin, im not into BGZ.

Both in terms of the long term practice- every day for months and months, and eventually within each Circle Turning session, the speed sort of follows the progression of Daoist cultivation practices described by Zhang Boduan. Where the beginner to Circle Turning, and in the roughly 10-20 minutes of an advanced practioner, one is stuck in the “Goat pulling a cart” phase, which is naturally slow, but because it’s either awkward or unlearned movements in the beginner, or just warming up in the advanced.
The next stage is called “Attaching a Cart to a Deer”, and this is where speed can come in. If you’ve practiced a lot and your circle doesn’t roam around the room, or have a wobbly center, then this fast speed can either feel like a centripetal force, if you’re using a Dragon or Bear (yin yang fish palms) posture, or it feels like a centrifugal force if you’re using the Phoenix (throw open the shutters to look at the moon) Posture. Where you have to lean inward to the center.
Eventually you will feel a huge shift in both your mental and physiological state and suddenly slow down, sink, and relax, but just feel really strong. Your body feels full of strength. This is called the “Ox pulling a Cart”. The Ox is the only animal that is comfortable with having a Cart attached to itself. This is the stage where the slower you can step, but without stopping and starting, the better. And the longer you can keep this last stage/ phase going. It will eventually end, and your physiological state will return to normal.
So long story short, you will eventually transition between different speeds during a Circle Turning session.

I’ve practice 3 different schools of Bagua. None of them had any “slow” circle walking, all was quite fast right from the start. Bagua circle walking is based on keeping a certain momentum, if you try to walk too slow it’s not natural for the body. It should be quite fast and dynamic and practiced with a spirit of livelinesses.

When I learned bagua, there were various "frames" that among other things, had different speeds of walking.

If the way of walking is considerably different from the typical way of walking, it makes sense to first practice it slowly and carefully.
Once it is done naturally, then fast practice is also good.

Pace and tempo may also be affected by how "weighted" you are and whether you are walking on bricks - different branches multiple ways of training

Bob wrote:Pace and tempo may also be affected by how "weighted" you are and whether you are walking on bricks - different branches multiple ways of training

One of my old teachers practice circle walking on bricks. He did not teach Bagau directly that I know of but the style practiced
Tibetan white crane...among other styles as it was taught did practice circle walking, to fighting in the circle


My taiji teacher was a Bagua exponent before learning taiji.. dropping the Bagua after meeting his teacher and started training.

Feel what should be examined when talking about any type of practice related to speed of a practice is the purpose and conditions of the practice itself and what it's trying to develop.

As in taiji, the many foundational requirements related to the practice require that the practice itself be done very mindfully, and in a slow manner to develop and maintain the requirements...

There is no need for fast sets or anything else once Basic foundational requirements have been meet and developed.

slow or fast its the same..

my usual application is middle aged futbol. we are old and slow but given that context, our footwork has some good twists, turns, and angles. no need for palm changes, maybe just a bit of kao. training is more or less "slow is smooth, smooth is fast".

for "normal" ima, from a taijiquan bias, bagua feels like "taijiquan with interesting footwork". as long as i can work on the qi and jin, all is great.

Would this be considered fast?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_Ov3PIbG5A

Would this be considered fast?

some things to consider :

Is the movement broken
Is it whole body movement
Is it continuous

Hmm, I have never done much bagua. Imo, his movement looks continuous and uses his whole body. I just wondered whether bagua practitioners thought he was doing it fast, or if they (ever) practice at that speed.

Very low and slow. 5-10 min max.

windwalker wrote:
Feel what should be examined when talking about any type of practice related to speed of a practice is the purpose and conditions of the practice itself and what it's trying to develop.

As in taiji, the many foundational requirements related to the practice require that the practice itself be done very mindfully, and in a slow manner to develop and maintain the requirements...

There is no need for fast sets or anything else once Basic foundational requirements have been meet and developed.

slow or fast its the same..

heads on there, as i was trying to express in my previous post here, kind of thinking the BGZ method should not be too dissimilar to TJQ essential methods.

yes, slow and fast the same, as long as the ”contact points” are maintained so correct listening is kept througout the practice.....
Fast（or slow.）for its own sake is just fast（or slow） lulling around and are never connected and miss the point by far.