the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

everything wrote:the stories always talk about how fast the bgz folks move.

.... so .... are you literally "walking" the circle super fast at times? more like yang taiji speed? something else? all of the above?

In Liang style bagua it depends on how good you are. First thing is to train correctly, if you can go fast and correct, then yes, some fast training is appropriate. I saw Zhang Huasen walk the circle with a senior student and ZHS could easily chase him down. ZHS could get pretty close to a run.

For the past year now, i've taken up my bagua (again), practicing everyday if possible. It is the start for me of a RENEWED 10 year interest in practicing BGZ. Meaning i've given myself 10 years to try and study it...in a more serious fashion other than just casual.

Also, for the record:, I had been taught the fundamentals / basics for Sun Tai chi, bagua and xing yi. But it doesn't mean that I KNOW or have been practicing them evenly for the past 20 years. I favor my Tai chi and bagua but I like Xing Yi the least.

Anyway, i'm not in a hurry to master BGZ either. I'm just curious where it will take me and if it will alter my overall views of CMA.

Right now my 1st 2 palms changes and 8 animal forms (put together) takes me about 6mins if going faster and 7 if going slower. (I don't like slower than that... my preference)

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Now my 2 cents
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Every step is an entry that is coordinated with the palms. In this regard it can be fast or slow, depends on your focus. I don't attempt to write Chinese correctly, but (Spelling?) "BI or By" Bu is the open / turn outward step and "Koi Bu" is the close or turn the foot inward step.

Who says however that using bgz...that you always have to CIRCLE walk? I don't view it that way, the overall goal is no different than other forms of CMA. The same basics apply, defend your center (be mindful of it) and exploit a way into or VS the center of your opponent. It's not about walking, it's about coordination of hands and feet. If you don't need to move fast...then don't.

When it comes to speed, when NOT touching can be a perception of distance. When you watch 2 heavy weight boxers from a distance (ie 10 rows back) they don't look fast compared to FLYweights. But stand directly in front of one (ie fight distance) and they can be very fast.

of course once you are touching..( ie close up), even slow can seem fast. For obvious reasons.

something to ponder

It is clear that circle walking in different Bagua systems is often trained differently, with different goals in mind, so I can only talk about the way it's trained in the system I do. In our system, speed is related to the correct acceleration and rhythm of the step, which comes about as a result of correct compression and release of the step, and to go further, is a result of maintaining the correct balance of expansion and release of the body and retaining the correct alignment... so going fast or slow is not used as a way to develop something specific, it's a result of one's level of development... if you have deeper development, you able to harness more compression and release of the connective tissue, which allows you to accelerate your body weight fast, which in turn makes your stepping faster... if you try to "force" yourself to go faster without having the sufficient body development, you end up cheating yourself and only hurt your own training. Also, going "fast" in our system is not about how fast you can go around the circle, but the speed of the acceleration of each step, because that's what matters in our system when it comes to delivering one's full body weight into a strike. Basically, you can go as fast as you can, as long as you can maintain all of the requirements of system, but if your speed is compromising any body principles, then you have to slow down to get those body requirements right first.

Speed is relative. You can walk the circle with an even stepping rhythm but go very fast around is, or you can have a fast acceleration in your step, but slow down the compression of the foot that's "full" (with the body weight on it), and the result could be slower around the circle. Then there's how fast you get around a circle depending on the length of your stride etc. it all depends on the goals of the training.

really interesting replies from everyone, thanks for these detailed observations. acceleration instead of speed and "not forcing" makes a lot of sense to me. same with "fast circle walk practice" vs. "fast something else". it seems like common sense but it seems endlessly fascinating (looking at bgz from a distance).

Yes pretty much all boils down to one thing: change is the underlying principle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSj7rjrSGb4 your truly. speed does not matter depending on what ur training.

Reminds me of Luo De Xiu snake.

Bow Sim Mark would get to the speed of a tilt a whirl.
Pa Kua push hands could be won by whoever did not get dizzy and fall down.
Important point when speeding up - avoid to push with the rear foot, should motivate forward with the body center.

everything wrote:the stories always talk about how fast the bgz folks move.

.... so .... are you literally "walking" the circle super fast at times? more like yang taiji speed? something else? all of the above?

Of the top three or four martial art experiences of my life, is my witness of my first Sifu doing Bagua. He probably learned it either from, or with, or from the same teacher as Andrea Faulk, but that is pure speculation. He might have learned it from Wang Jurong, guilty by association, but again, pure speculation.

It was unlike anything I had ever seen before or since, save my current sifu. It was inhuman. It was so crisp, so clear, so perfect, everything I have ever seen since is an imitation. I think this performance is what gave me fast eyes, as you can never go back to appreciating normal martial arts after witnessing genius. There are just no words to describe it, you will know it if you ever see it. The only other times I have ever seen anything comparable at all was when I witnessed Wai Lun Choi's immortal liu he ba fa performance in Baltimore at the 1995 USAWKKF tournament (I will probably never see that again), and when I saw my sifu doing Chen style.

Something in you just knows.

Anyways it was just so super fast and exact and clean, it harkens back to images of Chen fake or the short clips of Chen Zhaokui I saw. Even just witnessing a demonstration of the power changes you forever. That's why I am eternally grateful, while at the same time it represents my deepest regret.

iwalkthecircle wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSj7rjrSGb4 your truly. speed does not matter depending on what ur training.

.....thanks for sharing some of your work

The best in year of the Dragon

Fast slow speed is irelavent

As I was taught, the solo practice of circle walking in the Sun Style at varying speeds ranging from very slow to very fast provides immediate feedback and insight on how to develop and maintain balanced stability and overall body control at any speed necessary for effective application of the techniques employed.

With the addition of sufficiently relaxed flexibility in all movements, the practitioner can then easily generate enough speed defensively to neutralize attacks with very quick, agile footwork, while simultaneously applying countermeasures with the upper body in a different direction at increased speed.

A committed attacker will thus usually have enough power and momentum moving at the previous speed in the initial direction to prevent them from following the change. Done well, the attacker never catches up before they are defeated.

It has changed for me a couple if times depending where I was at energetically. I have flown through the 8 palms. Recently we did a tweak to detox and it had me leaning forward and zipping around the circle and the 9 Palaces.