Tang Hao’s Analysis Of Wang Zongyue

[Trick]

Yes, they were folk heroes, but also, at some point real people. As real as a communist peasant worker. In the case of Zhangsangfeng he was clearly several different real people. We talk about the spirit writing aspect, and Zhangsanfeng, in this excellent chat I had with Wudang Taoist, Simon Cox:

Well, I thought it was excellent anyway



I think we (we as people) need to get away from this Confucian-inspired (or possibly Star Wars-inspired) - direct student\teacher relationship tracing all the way back - and get more into the idea of marital arts being generated out of traditions, not by individual people.

Isn’t current wudang with its kungfu as strait out of a Lucas story, at least those who participate in it with their whiskers, hair-bun and cool ancient looking hats and robes doing XYQ right out of Tianjin ineptly dreaming being the next ZSF.

But there can be only one.

Several different Zhang Sanfeng’s !? The guy is immortal, same same, but today he’s probably metropolitan wearing slacks and derby’s musing with the Beijing TJQ 24.

[Trick]

I would still attest that before 1900, "martial arts", would be mainly a social pastime - what you did in your spare time, perhaps performed at festivals to appease the hungry ghosts, or for other reasons, for social cohesion of the group, entertainment, etc.

I would see that as related to, but not the same as, serious weapons training/fighting done by militia, or done by soldiers. Killing and being killed.

The history of military arts, is not the history of martial arts.

After 1900 (the failure of the Boxer Rebellion) all those "rotten old traditions" began to be stripped from marital arts, until we have what we have today. A load of guys hilariously miscommunicating on the Internet with each other and trying to figure out what all these weird moves are for

The rebellioneers was called boxers by the British colonialists, while it actually was an uprising by the peasants under leadership from an religious sect, the real boxers were most probably only a handful of them.
Now the Brits call the peasants otherthings .

[twocircles13]

I wonder if people have odd ideas about the "boxers". I don't see them as a group of highly trained martial artists. Rather, I see them as disaffected local youth ("bare sticks" who had no prospect of marriage or a much of a future) rounded up from the local villages, whipped up on anti-foreigner propaganda, told they were on a mission to save the Empress, convinced that some sort of spirit trance could repel bullets and then sent out to murder innocent civilians then massacred by highly trained European troops. Everybody had guns and weapons. Nobody was kung fu fighting. Or boxing.

Thanks for the patience while I catch up to the leading edge of the discussion.

"I wonder if people have odd ideas about the “boxers”"

I wonder if you do, at least in the assumptions and details.

"I don't see them as a group of highly trained martial artists.”

Attaining a level of proficiency in a martial art was requisite to joining the secret societies which bred the rebellion. I am sure that as the rebellion started breaking out that less skilled were recruited too. The preparation for the Rebellion had been in the works for decades if not centuries.

"Rather, I see them as disaffected local youth ("bare sticks" who had no prospect of marriage or a much of a future) rounded up from the local villages”

Why would they go to the scattered villages when “disaffected youth” were concentrated in the cities. I’m not saying they didn’t go to any villages just not only the villages. Recruitment was not unlike gangs today, at least those here in the US. It meant protection and other perks for its members. Martial art schools were often a front for society operations, but recruitment was not limited to youth. In the villages, the martial arts were often taught within families. Elders of the village would have decided who to support. Individuals from villages where martial arts were not taught might be more likely to be individually recruited.

"whipped up on anti-foreigner propaganda, told they were on a mission to save the Empress”

This was a misdirect. The goal of the societies who participated in the rebellion was to restore China to the glory of the Ming, This meant to expel foreign exploiters and then end the Qing Dynasty. While the Boxer Rebellion failed to expel foreigners, the societies changed tactics and succeeded in ending the Qing twelve years later.

"convinced that some sort of spirit trance could repel bullets”

Yep, this still exists in kungfu shows, but instead of bullets, spear and knives are used, although, I remember a magician who used to catch a bullet in his teeth. This is an extension of Iron Shirt, Golden Bell and other trainings meant to toughen and harden the skin.

This is also a perversion of the “battle magic” that I referred to. Every Chinese army up to this time had used totems, talismans, and emblems to give their troops confidence in battle.

My favorite tactic during the Boxer Rebellion was the Women’s Support Group who entered trances and sent their spirits, out of body, to loosen the screws and otherwise sabotage the foreign troops. They may have been better off had the done like Chinese armies of the past and sprayed their enemies with female urine and menses.

"then sent out to murder innocent civilians then massacred by highly trained European troops.”

I doubt that was their goal, but when you elicit a mob, you can hardly predict the violence a mob will do. They were supposed to drive the foreigners into the sea. The notion in China has long been manpower over firepower. Vestiges of this idea still exist in the PLA today.

"Everybody had guns and weapons. Nobody was kung fu fighting. Or boxing.”

Well, the Boxers had guns but not every boxer had a gun or it may have turned out a little differently, but you are right, everyone had a weapon. The rebellion supporters had thousands of cheap ox-tail dao and spears made, others had staves and sticks that they had trained on.

I think that you tend to limit your definition of martial arts to empty-hand fighting. This was not the Chinese way. Empty-hand training was only ever a gateway, albeit important. The next step was melee weapons, followed by archery and horsemanship. Then, the maneuvers of troops and tactics of groups. However, in the Chinese psyche, the martial arts are scalable. That is, the same tactics and mindset one used to defend oneself from a mugging are the same tactics and mindset one used to defend one’s country from invasion.

[twocircles13]

Um, I guess what did the Imperial military train in the early 19th c., around the time of YLC etc. Or, perhaps, what were they training when the idea of the "weak man of Asia" was around? I know that people in the military often practiced martial arts, though not necessarily as part of their training.

I'm not sure I'd care much about the Chinese military when they were at their weakest and most decimated, just after fighting the massive Taiping Rebellion civil war and then having their arses kicked by Europeans who wanted to push opium on the population. But those guys were Manchu originally, so probably everybody wrestled.

Yes, time period is a huge factor. If we limit to the Qing Dynasty, in the early Qing the army consisted of primarily of the eight Manchu Banners and the Green Standard Army (defeated Ming troops recruited to serve the Qing). The banners were originally organized by family, so the martial arts taught were those taught within each Manchu family, although some families also hired martial art instructors. The Green Standard Army brought village marital arts with them and various, but training was focused on the weapons used by the individual unit. The Qing soon allowed a Han (native Chinese) and Mongol Banners to form. Through intermarriage and other societal changes toward the end of the Qing the banners were of quite mixed nationality of origin.

General Qi didn't think much of martial arts in the proceeding Ming - too acrobatic and no use for warfare, apparently, but that would indicate that people were practicing them and they were pretty flashy.

That is a very odd interpretation of Qi Jiguang’s writings, out of context.

As one of my Wutan teachers told me, Qi basically said, “You wouldn’t want to go onto a battlefield empty-handed.”

Here is the introductory paragraphs of Chapter 14 translated by Clifford Gyves (1993). Bracketed comments are mine.

This craft [boxing] does not really concern itself with military weapons, but acquiring excess strength is also something which those in the military field ought to practice. Yet even those among the masses who cannot be strong may learn from that [boxing techniques] which renders an advantage. Thus, I am using this chapter to serve as the conclusion to the other chapters, i.e. number 14.

The fist methods do not seem to concern themselves with the arts of great warfare; nevertheless, to move the
hands and feet actively and to work habitually the limbs and body constitutes the gateway to beginning study and entering the art. Therefore I have reserved it for the end so as to complete the whole school.

In studying the fundamentals of the fist, the body methods are active and versatile, the hand techniques are versatile and keen, the foot methods are light yet firm, and the advancing and withdrawal techniques achieve the appropriate positions. The legs can fly and soar--and how marvelous they are! Somersaults and knock-down jabs--how violent they are! Chopping and splitting, striking the fist from the middle--how fast they are! Deftly positioning yourself and facing heaven--how pliant it is! Knowledge is equivalent to an oblique lightning bolt.

And for comparison, here is Paul Brennan’s translation of the same passages.

(These skills will not prepare you for battle, but they can supply you with extra strength. Therefore they too should be a part of military training. On the other hand, civilians who do not have much strength can also learn much that is useful from these skills, which is why I have included this chapter at the end.)
　　Boxing arts do not seem to be useful skills for the battlefield, but they exercise the hands and feet, and accustom the limbs and body to hard work. Thus they serve as basic training. Therefore I have included this discussion of them as the final chapter, in order to complete this study [of military theory]. To learn a boxing art, you have to have a nimble body, dexterous hands, and be light-footed yet sure-footed. Advancing and retreating in exactly the right way, it will be as though your legs can fly. Its subtleties can be found in all of its lowering and rising, turning around and thrusting through [i.e. its constant changing of height and direction]. Its fierceness can be found in chopping and swinging. Its quickness can be found in grabbing the opponent and tossing him away so that he finds himself facing the sky. Its softness can be found in knowing when it is time to evade.

It sounds more like Qi thought highly of boxing training as preparation for the battlefield, but it would be foolish indeed to walk onto a battlefield unarmed, as some movies like to portray.

From my previous post.

I think that you tend to limit your definition of martial arts to empty-hand fighting. This was not the Chinese way. Empty-hand training was only ever a gateway, albeit important. The next step was melee weapons, followed by archery and horsemanship. Then, the maneuvers of troops and tactics of groups. However, in the Chinese psyche, the martial arts are scalable. That is, the same tactics and mindset one used to defend oneself from a mugging are the same tactics and mindset one used to defend one’s country from invasion.

[GrahamB]

If you say "marital arts" to anybody today, there's a subtext that you mean empty hand fighting. That's just the way it is. Read Bowman, The invention of martial arts, popular culture between Asia and America.

As Trick says - the Boxer Rebellion was an uprising mainly of peasants, most of them freshly recruited, not kung fu masters - I don't think this is debated.

As I said, General Qi didn't think much of martial arts as being useful for soldiers on a battlefield: "Boxing arts do not seem to be useful skills for the battlefield, but they exercise the hands and feet, and accustom the limbs and body to hard work. Thus they serve as basic training. " - that kind of summarises the whole thing. The rest of the chapter goes on to talk about bare hand boxing postures, with illustrations, so you can see he's talking about bare hand martial arts. Pictures: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... g-classic/

[Steve James]

Maybe it'd be more accurate to distinguish "civilian martial arts" from military martial arts precisely because the civilian mas have nothing to do with warfare. Yeah, we call what we do a martial art, but it's just for health, play, maybe profit, and ego.

In the middle ground are self-defense and bouncing. It makes me wonder, if a group is famous for caravan guarding, wouldn't they be more famous for weapons than for empty hand work?

[origami_itto]

Maybe it'd be more accurate to distinguish "civilian martial arts" from military martial arts precisely because the civilian mas have nothing to do with warfare. Yeah, we call what we do a martial art, but it's just for health, play, maybe profit, and ego.

In the middle ground are self-defense and bouncing. It makes me wonder, if a group is famous for caravan guarding, wouldn't they be more famous for weapons than for empty hand work?

I can't imagine studying any of the CIMA without including weapons.

I mean, Yang without weapons... why?

[Doc Stier]

If you say "marital arts" to anybody today, there's a subtext that you mean empty hand fighting. That's just the way it is.

Agreed. Modern military training everywhere includes hand to hand combat skills, i.e. martial arts skills for close quarters fighting, both with and without weapons, but these are used only as a last resort. Enlisted infantry personnel are first and foremost a rifleman, not a martial artist.

[everything]

Yuan

I'm sure it's far more complex, but if we go back to the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368), we can say the "Mongol Horde" had superiority in at least three "martial arts" aspects (plus the combination), and those "martial arts" were actually for "martial" not "civilian navel gazing" or "peasant boxer cult" or any other LARP like purposes:

1. horseback riding (more broadly, we'd probably say "logistics" over very long distances)
2. archery (with this empty hand civilian "martial arts" view, we'd maybe say "long range" fighting)
3. wrestling (CQC, physicality, a good "base" for "mma" or more broad "martial arts", worst cases if you were no longer on horse but on foot, etc.).

Whatever the complex tactics and 1:1 techniques were, surely something "effective" passed down all the way to early firearms time periods. Something that sounds ridiculous like "multiple attackers" or "nine palace bagua" in navel-gazing civilian contexts doesn't sound ridiculous in that context. It sounds like the norm. Some say the "Mongol Horde" used gunpowder in battle first (for auditory shock?). Castle building and defensive techniques improved as a result of the attacks.

Once those tactics and techniques became obsolete / unnecessary, we got the "ineffectual" and "cultivation" and "health" and "nation building" civilian stuff. Like graham said, we get idiots arguing idiotic stuff on a forum as our inheritance from that

unless we want to visit North Sentinel Island (and probably get killed by arrows or spears), we're not going to go back to a time of bows/arrows and spears for hunting and "martial arts". but just looking at them we can see where these "martial arts" / hunting/foraging arts of archery and spear techniques come from. more reason "spear arts" likely do come from "battlefields" (and hunting for food). if you want to take your civilian LARPing way back, probably can just learn that and you can be as "paleo" and "primitive" as you like https://www.survivalinternational.org/t ... entinelese

[twocircles13]

If you say "marital arts" to anybody today, there's a subtext that you mean empty hand fighting. That's just the way it is. Read Bowman, The invention of martial arts, popular culture between Asia and America.

Well, yes, if you say "martial artist” to “anybody" today, in other words, lay people today, and I would expand that include a majority of students in commercial martial art schools, they would think of martial arts as empty-handed.

But, we are not lay people, we are traditional Chinese martial artists, and we should know that our empty-hand sets historically prepared practitioners to use weapons, at the very least staves. Whether or not we choose to or are able to avail ourselves of that training is another matter. I think it unfortunate if one does not for one’s overall comprehension of one’s art,

As Trick says - the Boxer Rebellion was an uprising mainly of peasants, most of them freshly recruited, not kung fu masters - I don't think this is debated.

Yes, the Boxers were mostly peasants, some urban and some rural. If they were members of secret societies, which many, if not most, were, then they had enough proficiency in martial arts that they were able to use weapons. This does not mean they were masters, but a few masters were killed. We can address the details of the Boxer Rebellion in another thread.

As I said, General Qi didn't think much of martial arts as being useful for soldiers on a battlefield: "Boxing arts do not seem to be useful skills for the battlefield, but they exercise the hands and feet, and accustom the limbs and body to hard work. Thus they serve as basic training. " - that kind of summarises the whole thing. The rest of the chapter goes on to talk about bare hand boxing postures, with illustrations, so you can see he's talking about bare hand martial arts. Pictures: https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... g-classic/

Well, the term is fist, implying boxing, which is empty-handed, so once again, he is saying not to go unarmed into battle. As far as usefulness, he indicates it is useful preparation and conditioning, which is major component of using a weapon effectively. He is not saying boxing is useless and not worth learning, in general.

This returns aging to Chinese martial arts nd weapons. My first Yang style Taijiquan teacher, C.K. Chu, wrote regarding the five elements, “In t’ai chi ch'uan, the five elements are represented: the {dao] is metal, the staff is wood, the {jian] is water, the spear is fire, and the regular t’ai chi ch’uan training without weapons is earth.” He went on to explain that the "five elements” were the building blocks of all things. Likewise, with these five aspects of training the adept could go on to master the nine yin and nine yang weapons. He explained not that there are just 18 weapons, but this represents the array of all Chinese weaponry.

The point being that the Chinese see fist as just one element in a comprehensive approach to martial art training.

[origami_itto]

If you say "marital arts" to anybody today, there's a subtext that you mean empty hand fighting. That's just the way it is.

Agreed. Modern military training everywhere includes hand to hand combat skills, i.e. martial arts skills for close quarters fighting, both with and without weapons, but these are used only as a last resort. Enlisted infantry personnel are first and foremost a rifleman, not a martial artist.

Modern Weapons Training

[everything]

is that the "make Gif button to definitively prove all you other RSF people are certainly wrong" button

[origami_itto]

It's the "lob massive amounts of munitions from a comfortable distance" button

[GrahamB]

I'm sensing that people's desire to be "right" is stronger than my desire to continue.

[twocircles13]

If you say "marital arts" to anybody today, there's a subtext that you mean empty hand fighting. That's just the way it is.

Agreed. Modern military training everywhere includes hand to hand combat skills, i.e. martial arts skills for close quarters fighting, both with and without weapons, but these are used only as a last resort. Enlisted infantry personnel are first and foremost a rifleman, not a martial artist.

I agree with your thinking. In the modern mind, there is a disconnect between hand-to-hand fighting and fighting with ranged weapons.

But for those of us who practice traditional Chinese martial arts, this was not the case at all in any of Chinese history. Hand-to-hand training was scalable and applicable in every stage up of strategy and tactics up to maneuvering army against army and nation against nation.

In the modern PLA, both mindsets currently exist.