Teacher Profile

[Trick]

any yang taiji fast form most probably came around -
1 : from students seeing the masters personal spontaneously freestyling the traditional form, and then tried as best they could to recreate into a formalized exercise what they seen...

The Fast Sets, Long Boxing, ext., are old Taiji Fight training methods that were Passed on.
Yang Chengfu’s Older Family members, Uncles, Older brother, practiced these methods.

Yang Shaohou, Yang Chengfu's older brother, learnt some of his skills from his uncle Yang Banhou. His Taiji high "frame" had lively footwork and small movements, alternating quick with slow actions. He was swift and powerful in delivering his blows roaring and howling as he darted back and forth.

The techniques of his Taiji were: overcoming strong attacks with soft movements, adapting oneself to others' movements and following up with quick attacks, using the motion of "sudden connection" to defeat the opponent with surprise attacks. The hand movements included catching, pushing and capturing, injuring the attacker's muscles and harming his bones, attacking the opponent's vital points and "controlling" his arteries and veins, using "continuous" and "sudden connection" force to throw the attacker to the ground with lightning speed.

They are not made up or died out; the are passed on.
Yang Chengfu passed these Taiji Training methods on to his disciples, Chen Wei-ming, Tung Ying-chieh, etc.

Yang Chengfu passed it on his son, Yang Sau Chung, and he passed it to his children. His children still teach it to their Taiji students today.
Some of their students are members of RSF.

"When he (Yang Chengfu) gave demonstrations" during his early days in Shanghai, which was setup by his disciple Chen Weiming, Chengfu performed the movements of kicking with speed and force. Later, however, to suit the needs of treating chronic disease, he changed them into slow movements with inner exertion of force. And in such movements as punching downward and punching the opponent's pubic region, he only made imitations instead of manifest exertions of force, thus making the set of movements continuous and evenly paced."
Gu Liu Xin, in his introduction to 'Yang style Taijiquan' by Yang Zhen Duo

Though, Chengfu took them out for treating disease,
The Yang Style Taiji that Tung Ying-chieh passed down to his children and their families
still retain many of the old training methods like Rapid Kicks, etc.,
in their Tradition Yang Style Taiji

Those old Yang Style Training methods,
informs all the Taiji they do.

Those old Taiji Training methods are in the Fast Sets

Just like sparring,
Taiji fast form, Long Boxing, are Shadowboxing that
can help Taiji Students increase accuracy,
form, technique, footwork and prepare them for real fights.

Fast sets do not take the place the slow set;
they are another Tool in the Taiji Training Toolbox.

So, do the fast sets or don’t, it’s up to you.

yes ive heard and read all about that long time ago.
that the longfist exercise should be a specific fighting exercise more than the authentic taijiquan form just does not make sence.
longfist execise are of couse the beginner exercise for the totally untrained youngsters. someting all/most of the yang family members and guangfu village members went through doing at a young age, then when old and robust enough they began doing taijiquan.
swift footwork and quick hands expressed during taiji practice comes naturally with longtime correct authentic ”slow” form practice.
if such hasnt come forth, then one have to just continue practising the aithentic taijiquan form...patience.

[Trip]

yes ive heard and read all about that long time ago.
that the longfist exercise should be a specific fighting exercise more than the authentic taijiquan form just does not make sence.

longfist execise are of couse the beginner exercise for the totally untrained youngsters.

someting all/most of the yang family members and guangfu village members went through doing at a young age,
then when old and robust enough they began doing taijiquan.

Wow! You’ve really, really put me in a dilemma.

First, just for clarity sake,
my post did not mention LongFist.
So, I don’t know when Longfist should be taught in Yang Style Taiji.

However, my post did mention, Yang Taiji Long Boxing

Master Yang Cheng Fu writes:
'When the height of our stance and the speed of our hands is guided by the proper measure
we can be free of the necessity for fixed rules of height and speed.'

Taken from Douglas Wile's Tai-Chi Touchstones “Yang Family Secret Transmissions"

In Master Yang Cheng Fu's 'Talks On The Practice Of Taijiquan',
the sequence of training is first to learn Taijiquan, then Taiji Long Boxing
before going on to Push Hands, Sparring Hands and Weapons.
Taiji Long Boxing can then be viewed as a mode of practice to ready the student for the practice of Push Hands which is not always slow.

Yang Cheng Fu, recorded by Chen Wei Ming, found in
Yang Style Taijiquan by Yang Zhen Duo

The question is,
do I believe
Yang Chengfu,
his son Yang Shou Chung,
His longtime disciples, Chen Weiming & Tung Ying-chieh,
that wrote books with Chengfu.

Or, do I believe Trick?

[origami_itto]

That's exactly the stuff I'm talking about. It's referred to as Chang Quan, Long Boxing or Long Fist.

That confuses people because they say "BUT LONG FIST IS A SHAOLIN FORM!"

It's a different Long Fist. It's Tai Ji Chang Quan. It existed as part of the early Yang curriculum and something like it was alleged to be a part of Chan Wang Ting's legacy.

When you look at the latter day Yang, the high water mark before it started getting a bit muddled over here at least, it's like I'd said before, each of the forms had a specific point. It's not just endlessly collecting forms for the purpose of having a collection of forms. Each one is a tool for a purpose.

People learn one piece of the system and think that's the whole system. They learn one system and think that's all the truth that exists in the universe.

So you get people that only know one form and know the rules for doing that form so you can achieve the intention of that particular exercise, and they think that every exercise in Taijiquan is subject to the same rules.

Hence people see the fast form and think it breaks rules, changing heights and speeds, issuing energy, jumping, stomping, follow steps. "That can't possibly be Taijiquan, it's so external." "That can't possibly contain anything useful that isn't in the form everyone complains had everything useful removed to make it easier for senior citizens."

Or they don't understand the point of it, I guess. That's fine. It's not your Taiji, don't worry about it. It's wrong, you shouldn't bother learning too much about it, just content yourselves with observing our foolishness from afar.

Bao, that's students that are learning the form. It's challenging to perform exactly correctly, particularly as a student still learning it. That's about all I can say about it. It's an amazing piece of work, worth the effort.

I love this art, I really do. I've been putting a significant amount of my free time, and as much of my paid time as I can get away with, towards thinking about and practicing it. Still not very good at it.

Point is in the year or two since I've heard about Tai Chi, the one thing that has been made abundantly clear to me is that the future of this art lies in shitting on everything and everyone that isn't enrolled in your school. It's the only thing that brings us together. It's the only thing anyone finds interesting or useful. Hero worship and backbiting, the twin pillars of CIMA.

[everything]

idk, sun style taijiquan and sun style bagua and probably sun style xingyiquan "look" not "martial", not "athletic", not "flowery" in the form demos, but then you can find plenty of application videos where those compact movements look efficient and effective.

so i kinda doubt anyone is saying things should look like tkd 540 spinning kicks and parkour here, but who knows.

technique is easy... in the sense that in all sports, getting to mediocre adult rec level is easy.

doing "internal" is really difficult. it seems too vain to put it on someone here to "save" an art.

[wayne hansen]

Are we not all responsible to save the art or why are we here
If not why waste your time
Go do something else

[everything]

who is responsible?

... what is the concrete plan to find and recruit a "future Fedor", teach him to win national or international sambo/judo, mma, neigong, plus "big 3" IMA?

... this is sort of like saying Barcelona coaches must find a "next Messi". I'm sure they are trying very hard every single day, but they cannot will that into existence.

last time I checked, nobody claimed they are at the level of "Barcelona coaches" or a Pep Guardiola. I don't know how we can put that kind of expectation on people if they are not at that level. plus, if they are, they already know the recruiting pipeline/machinery also has to be world class. I don't think any of that exists in ima (or even mma) at the level of the world's top sports.

[Trick]

yes ive heard and read all about that long time ago.
that the longfist exercise should be a specific fighting exercise more than the authentic taijiquan form just does not make sence.

longfist execise are of couse the beginner exercise for the totally untrained youngsters.

someting all/most of the yang family members and guangfu village members went through doing at a young age,
then when old and robust enough they began doing taijiquan.

Wow! You’ve really, really put me in a dilemma.

First, just for clarity sake,
my post did not mention LongFist.
So, I don’t know when Longfist should be taught in Yang Style Taiji.

However, my post did mention, Yang Taiji Long Boxing

Master Yang Cheng Fu writes:
'When the height of our stance and the speed of our hands is guided by the proper measure
we can be free of the necessity for fixed rules of height and speed.'

Taken from Douglas Wile's Tai-Chi Touchstones “Yang Family Secret Transmissions"

In Master Yang Cheng Fu's 'Talks On The Practice Of Taijiquan',
the sequence of training is first to learn Taijiquan, then Taiji Long Boxing
before going on to Push Hands, Sparring Hands and Weapons.
Taiji Long Boxing can then be viewed as a mode of practice to ready the student for the practice of Push Hands which is not always slow.

Yang Cheng Fu, recorded by Chen Wei Ming, found in
Yang Style Taijiquan by Yang Zhen Duo

The question is,
do I believe
Yang Chengfu,
his son Yang Shou Chung,
His longtime disciples, Chen Weiming & Tung Ying-chieh,
that wrote books with Chengfu.

Or, do I believe Trick?

Ah, that long-boxing
Thats the other side of the taijiquan coin.
Instead of quoting the masters you could have as well quoted me , where i wrote ” the swift and power exhibits of a masters performance comes out spontaneous here and there only after mastering the authentic taijiquan form”（i wrote it shorter in my previous post）
That long boxing is an masterfull expression of the taijiquan form（it may be called otherthings by other masters）, and varies from person to person, from time to time, its not exactly a new set advanced form to be learned after mastering the taijiquan form,its a personal spontaneous free expression of it, and that is what the quotes of the masters you posted kind of says.
This is not easy to understand if one has not experienced it, practice on and it will come

[wayne hansen]

The long boxing of tai chi is just a name
It is nothing to do with Cha Chuan
It is a reference to tai chi flowing like a long river

[Bao]

In Master Yang Cheng Fu's 'Talks On The Practice Of Taijiquan',
the sequence of training is first to learn Taijiquan, then Taiji Long Boxing
before going on to Push Hands, Sparring Hands and Weapons.
Taiji Long Boxing can then be viewed as a mode of practice to ready the student for the practice of Push Hands which is not always slow.

Yang Cheng Fu, recorded by Chen Wei Ming, found in
Yang Style Taijiquan by Yang Zhen Duo

Must be a bad translation. There's nothing in Taijiquan that is Called long boxing or Changquan. Changquan is simply an older name of Taijiquan. As Wayne said, it just a reference of Taijiquan as a flowing river. Chang is specifically a reference to the Yangtze or Changjiang river.

[origami_itto]

In Master Yang Cheng Fu's 'Talks On The Practice Of Taijiquan',
the sequence of training is first to learn Taijiquan, then Taiji Long Boxing
before going on to Push Hands, Sparring Hands and Weapons.
Taiji Long Boxing can then be viewed as a mode of practice to ready the student for the practice of Push Hands which is not always slow.

Yang Cheng Fu, recorded by Chen Wei Ming, found in
Yang Style Taijiquan by Yang Zhen Duo

Must be a bad translation. There's nothing in Taijiquan that is Called long boxing or Changquan. Changquan is simply an older name of Taijiquan. As Wayne said, it just a reference of Taijiquan as a flowing river. Chang is specifically a reference to the Yangtze or Changjiang river.

Yes... there is.

As previously mentioned, before it was Taijiquan, it was Chen family boxing. It consisted of five short routines, a cannon fist form, and long boxing.

This long boxing is not the Long Boxing you would see otherwise. It's not the "external" martial art, it's just another way of moving that is different than the five short forms that became the old frame, and that is different than the cannon fist.

The old frame forms focused on softness and movement, cannon fist on putting power into the movement, and long fist on the changes and variations that make it a fully functional fighting art.

As it evolved into Yang style Taijiquan the existence of the Long Fist practice was documented in the 40 chapters, and Chen Wei Ming wrote that he learned the Long Fist routine from Yang Cheng Fu. Folks that claimed to have learned from Yang Shao Hou tend to refer to the Small Frame which by all accounts seems to be referring to the same practice of a Yang tradition that includes postures tuned for fighting application, fast and nimble footwork, fa jin expression, and varying heights and speeds of movement.

You can disagree all you like but this is all documented in multiple and various sources historically, and is taught by practitioners of verified continuous lineages. Maybe just not YOUR teacher.

So maybe ALL of these other people are just making shit up or are confused, or maybe your teacher just didn't get that part of the system. The impulse is to declare our teacher perfect but that's just egotism by proxy.

Maybe the disappearance of such practices has something to do with Taijiquan's perpetual production of poor performing pugilists.

[Bao]

Yes... there is.

As previously mentioned, before it was Taijiquan, it was Chen family boxing. It consisted of five short routines, a cannon fist form, and long boxing.

Oh my... Changquan was a name adopted by Wu Yuxiang from the Tai Chi classics he collected.

Where's your source that the Chen stylists had something called changquan?

This long boxing is not the Long Boxing you would see otherwise. It's not the "external" martial art, it's just another way of moving that is different than the five short forms that became the old frame, and that is different than the cannon fist.

I know that the classic name has nothing to do with longfist Shaolin. I just said so in then post above, remember?

The old frame forms focused on softness and movement, cannon fist on putting power into the movement, and long fist on the changes and variations that make it a fully functional fighting art.

You are confused.

As it evolved into Yang style Taijiquan the existence of the Long Fist practice was documented in the 40 chapters, and Chen Wei Ming wrote that he learned the Long Fist routine from Yang Cheng Fu. Folks that claimed to have learned from Yang Shao Hou tend to refer to the Small Frame which by all accounts seems to be referring to the same practice of a Yang tradition that includes postures tuned for fighting application, fast and nimble footwork, fa jin expression, and varying heights and speeds of movement.

Chen Weiming did NOT differentiate Taijiquan and Changquan. He writes himself that "long boxing" is just a nother name of Taijiquan. When he said he learned long boxing fropm Yang Chengfu, he meant Taijiquan. Period.

From Chen Weiming's book:
"Taiji Boxing is also called Long Boxing. Although the names are somewhat different, their meaning is the same."

Small frame is not the same as fast frame, I believe you might be confusing them as well. Small frame, fast frame, medium frame, large frame, coiling frame etc, they are all "long boxing" aka Taijiquan.

You can disagree all you like but this is all documented in multiple and various sources historically, and is taught by practitioners of verified continuous lineages. Maybe just not YOUR teacher.

So maybe ALL of these other people are just making shit up or are confused, or maybe your teacher just didn't get that part of the system.

YOU are confused. As you say that the Chen boxing (=Tai Chi) had a routine specifically called long boxing, you should have no problem providing evidence. Take time if you need, I will be waiting.

The impulse is to declare our teacher perfect but that's just egotism by proxy.

Where the f*ck have I said that any of my teachers are perfect? I have always say that Taijiquan is too rich and broad for any teacher to have everything. All teachers have more or less skill and knowledge, and they are all specialized in one way or another. Claiming that certain people would have a "complete" Taijiquan is just ridiculous. It means that you don’t understand what Taijiquan is.

What practice are you jabbering about? What practice whould have disappeared?

Maybe the disappearance of such practices has something to do with Taijiquan's perpetual production of poor performing pugilists

[Trip]

YOU are confused. As you say that the Chen boxing (=Tai Chi) had a routine specifically called long boxing, you should have no problem providing evidence. Take time if you need, I will be waiting.

Stop playing with him Bao
you know darn well
nobody can convince you of anything
Go find out for yourself.

Chen Weiming did NOT differentiate Taijiquan and Changquan.

Well, Chen Wei-ming wrote:

Yang Chengfu taught me the Taiji Boxing set, then taught me the Taiji Long Boxing set.

Chen Weiming Taiji Sword - Brennan Translation

Plus, you did not accurately post Chen Weiming's full quote

He writes himself that "long boxing" is just a nother name of Taijiquan.
When he said he learned long boxing fropm Yang Chengfu, he meant Taijiquan. Period.

You are hiding the truth
You cut out one of Wei-Ming's essential sentences

In the quote Below
I highlighted that missing line you omitted in Bold Text.

Taiji Boxing is also called Long Boxing.
The Yang school teaches a Taiji Boxing solo set AND ALSO a Long Boxing solo set.
Although the names are somewhat different, their meaning is the same.

Brennan Translation

Here's the same quote by another writer.

Long boxing is like the Long River and the Great Sea, an unceasing torrent.
Chen: Taijiquan is also called long boxing.
The Yang Family transmitted Taijiquan AND Long Boxing.
The names are slightly different, their ideas are the same.

THE TAIJIQUAN CLASSICS: An Annotated Translation
Commentary by Chen Weiming
by Barbra Davis

And, here's Yang Chengfu talking about
Yang Style Taijiquan Long Boxing

The Taijiquan curriculum consists of hand forms first (i.e., empty hand),
such as Taijiquan AND Taijiquan Long Boxing.
Next comes One Hand Push-Hands, Fixed Position Push-Hands,
Push-Hands With Active Steps, Ta Li, and Free Sparring.
Last comes weapons, such as Taiji Double-Edged Sword,
Taiji Broadsword, Taiji Spear (Thirteen Spear), and so forth.

Dictated by Yang Ch'eng-fu,

Tai Chi Touchstones - Yang Family Secret Transmissions

I don’t understand how you can save an Art
but dismiss what Yang Chengfu & son’s
and Disciples have said & written about their art Yang Style Taijiquan.

[origami_itto]

Relax, Bao. I'm not talking directly to you. None of this is personal.

As mentioned before, the long fist differentiation was part of the history of the evolution of the form that T. T. Liang teaches. He got the information from one of his... what dozen or so teachers? It is documented on wikipedia at least in Chen Wing Ting's page, and is common knowledge in several traditional lineages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Wangting

Influence on tai chi
Whether or not Chen invented the earliest form of tai chi is in dispute. Traditional folklore and many lineages name the semi-mythical figure of Zhang Sanfeng, a Taoist monk, as the progenitor of the art.

Two widely documented theories of Chen's martial arts work exist: the first is that he learnt his arts from Wang Zongyue and the Wudang tradition developed by Zhang Sanfeng.[2] The second theory — the one accepted by the Chen family, and supported by historical evidence[3] — is that he combined his previous military experience and the theories of meridians and Daoyin with the popular teachings of Qi Jiguang.[4] His complete work contained five smaller sets of forms, a 108-move Long Fist[note 1] routine, and a Cannon Fist routine. Chen is also credited with the invention of the first push hands exercises.[1] Chen also practiced a few Shaolin forms, and some historians postulate that Shaolin arts also had a significant influence on his tai chi, though none of the Taoist influences on Chen family tai chi exist in the Shaolin tradition.[2][page needed]

Chen Wangting's next well-known successor was the 14th generation Chen Changxing (1771–1853), who was the direct teacher of the founder of Yang-style tai chi: Yang Luchan.

This might be it, who knows, it's apocryphal in many ways, it's hardly my invention.

Regarding the Chen Wei Ming, read for yourself.

https://discuss.yangfamilytaichi.com/vi ... php?t=3185

Taiji changquan preface by Chen Weiming

Mr. [Yang] Chengfu taught me taijiquan, then he further taught me taiji changquan [long boxing]. Within [changquan] there are a number of postures that are not present in taijiquan; the remaining [postures] are fairly similar—only the transitions throughout are different. This would indicate, therefore, that taijiquan originally had no fixed methods, nor did it have fixed forms. Taijiquan and changquan both contain peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, and zhou; [it] only lacks one: kaojin. I wanted to add the kao of dalu to the quan [form], but after several years of hard thinking, I was unable to get a way of linking [the postures] together. Now, inadvertently, I’ve suddenly gotten it, so that the linkages make for a perfect seemless whole; I daresay I am pleased with it. Then I took those cases where taijiquan has a left form but lacks a right, or has a right form but lacks a left, and I’ve added them in for balance. I’ve also observed what is known as the old style of taiji as transmitted by the Chen clan of Henan. This “Step back dispatch monkey,” is like a retreating form of “Brush knee twist step left and right,” and the turning of the body is especially light and lively. So I’ve also added it in, naming it “Retreat step brush knee.” All together there are 108 postures. Having taken Mr. [Yang] Chengfu’s transmitted changquan and expanded it, I do not dare speak of having invented something, but with regard to the intent of taijiquan, there is some increase, but there is no decrease; there are some changes, but there is no copying. Perhaps this can be of some help for students in their researches.
—Weiming, Winter, 1927

There's a lot to unpack there.

[origami_itto]

Here's the original Chinese and Brennan Translation of the same passage.
https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... iji-sword/

太極長拳序
INTRODUCTION TO THE TAIJI LONG BOXING SET

澄甫先生傳余太極拳復傳余太極長拳其中有數式為太極拳內所無者其餘大槪相同惟轉換之處前後略變易耳所以表示太極本無定法亦無定形太極拳及長拳掤捋擠按採挒肘七種勁均含在內惟缺一靠勁余欲以大捋之靠加入拳內思索數年不得其連貫轉接之法今於無意中忽然得之相接之處竟如天衣無縫竊自欣喜又以太極拳之有左式而無右式者有右式而無左式者均為加入又見河南陳家所傳太極名為舊派者其倒輦猴如摟膝拗步左右退行轉身極為輕靈亦加入名為退步摟膝共約一百零八式取澄甫先生所傳長拳而擴大之不敢言有所發明然於太極之意有增多而無減少有變換而無雷同或者可為學者研究之一助焉丁卯冬月微明識
Yang Chengfu taught me the Taiji Boxing set, then taught me the Taiji Long Boxing set. Within it are several postures absent from the Taiji Boxing set, while the rest of it is mostly the same, except for slight alterations to the turnings. This demonstrates that Taiji is basically as amorphous in method as it is in shape.
Both the Taiji Boxing set and Long Boxing set contain the seven energies of warding off, rolling back, pressing, pushing, plucking, rending, and elbowing, but lack the bumping energy. I wanted to add the bumping technique from the large rollback exercise into the set, and after pondering about it over several years, I still could not find any way to link it in. Recently it suddenly came to me by accident, and the place where it links in is so utterly seamless that I am delighted with it. [Chen placed his bumps into the second series of MAIDEN SENDS THE SHUTTLE THROUGH, just before each of the four-corner pushes. (See postures 75-86.)]
In the Taiji Boxing set, there are postures performed on the left side but not on the right, or on the right side but not on the left. I have made additions so that postures are performed on both sides. [In this way, almost every posture gets practiced on both sides, though there are still a few that are not.]
We see in the “old style” Taiji taught by the Chen family of Henan that its RETREAT, DRIVING AWAY THE MONKEY is a left & right retreating BRUSH PAST YOUR KNEE IN A CROSSED STANCE, turning around very nimbly. I have added this in and called it RETREAT, BRUSHING PAST YOUR KNEE.
Altogether, there are now about a hundred and eight postures [by not counting the BEGINNING POSTURE]. I have taken the Long Boxing set that Yang Chengfu taught me and expanded it. [There are only fifty-nine postures in Yang Chengfu’s list.] I would not presume to say I have invented anything, but that I have added to the Taiji concept without diminishing it, so that there is some variation rather than mere duplication, and it perhaps can assist you in your studies.
– written by Chen Weiming, 4th year of the cycle, “winter month” [Dec, 1927/Jan, 1928]

That seems pretty cut and dry to me and in no way confusing. Are YOU confused?

[origami_itto]

楊澄甫先生所授太極長拳目錄
CATALOGUE OF POSTURES IN THE TAIJI LONG BOXING SET AS TAUGHT BY YANG CHENGFU
[The name Long Boxing certainly does not mean this let set is longer than the standard one, for it is in fact shorter. (Long before Zheng Manqing had come up with his famous short form, Yang Chengfu had already made one, though it is somewhat tricky that the Long set is not the “long set”.) The name Long Boxing refers to another name for Taiji Boxing itself, explained as being like river flowing into ocean, on and on ceaselessly, representing flow. Going by this definition, Long Boxing, which is a literal translation, connotatively translates as Flowing Boxing. That Yang Chengfu, unless it was an earlier Yang, chose to call this set Taiji Long Boxing as opposed to the other set being merely Taiji Boxing suggests the standard set may have been considered to be more of a posture awareness set while the Long Boxing set was used more as the actual flow set, though this of course is only a speculation.]

增加太極長拳目錄
CATALOGUE OF POSTURES IN THE EXTENDED TAIJI LONG BOXING SET
[Chen Weiming added so much to Yang Chengfu’s shortened set that he lengthened it beyond the length of the standard set, consequently making his version of the Long Boxing set the longest set in all of Yang Style. In question #24 of his 1929 manual, Chen himself seemed to not hold this set in very high regard. Nevertheless, it his own unique contribution to the Taiji curriculum, and if we wished to find a “Chen Weiming style” of Taiji, surely it is here.]