Curious about height and names in tcc

[Steve James]

A question has been bugging me recently. The 'high' stance in most tcc forms is a crane (or stork, or just bird). The 'low' stance is the snake. In between, there's the tiger (as in the Embrace Tiger movement). Is there an 'animal' name used that's in between that and the bird? Yeah, it's just a forward stance, but is there an animal name for that?

[johnwang]

Embrace Tiger ...

It's not embrace tiger. It's well-fed tiger.

抱 - Bao
饱 - Bao

[Steve James]

Ok, well-fed tiger returns to mountain.

[ParadoxTeapot]

Should I be assuming that the animals are about the sequences such as "White Crane Spreads Wings" and "Snake Creeps Down"?

I don't think the stances themselves are named after animals. For example, Yang has "Baishe Tu Xin" (White Snake Spits Tongue), but that's a higher stance than "Snake Creeps Down", right? Both have "Snake" in the name, but the height isn't the same.

The corresponding sequence in Chen Style for "Snake Creeps Down" is called Die Cha (Falling Split) which isn't named after an animal. But both of them (Chen and Yang) go immediately to Jinjidili (Golden Rooster Stands One Leg). So there's another animal - rooster.

In Chen Style, there's Qinglong Chushui (Green Dragon out of Water) - so that's another animal - Dragon. And there's Bai Yuan Xian Guo (White ape offers Fruit) - an ape.

[Steve James]

Yes, I was thinking of White Crane and Snake Creeps Down. There's all the legendary stuff about those animals related to tcc. Yeah, White Snake Spits isn't about the stance, since it's part of Turn, Chop, with FIst anyway. I wasn't trying to identify the animal names with specific applications.

The forms that use Tiger (usually as something acted upon, aopt to acting) like Hit Tiger aren't done as low as SCD. I was just wondering whether there was a name for the position slightly higher. Hey, I'm not saying there is or should be. Jin bu is fine.

[ParadoxTeapot]

I've never heard of stances' height classified by animals before in Taijiquan.

To my understanding, the height of the stance is generally quite variable in that it can be done in a high, medium, or low stance - although there are moves such as Snake Creeps Down that ought to be done low. I think there was a story with Yang Shao Hou where students were made to practice beneath a high table - forcing them to go low. So you can imagine how that creates an upper limit to the stances' height.

[wayne hansen]

Two heights in Yang
Snake creeps down or it other name squating single whip
And the rest of the form
Just like there are only two speeds
Swinging lotus and the rest
There are reasons for this

[Steve James]

I've never heard of stances' height classified by animals before in Taijiquan.

Ya didn't hear it from me either. that wasn't my suggestion. The use of a name can be purely symbolic. It might not be important whether it's called Grasp Bird's Tail or Grasp Sparrow's Tail.

Right. I agree that the form in general can be done high, medium, or low. The Zhao Bao fellas do splits.

Height definition is interesting. Some people use the "head" as the measure: i.e., 3 heads down in height, 2 down, and at least one head down. Others used distance between feet (1 foot width, 2 ft, etc). In both ideas, WC would be 1 and SCD would be 3. Hey, just saying.

[johnwang]

Embrace Tiger ...

It's not embrace tiger. It's well-fed tiger.

抱 - Bao
饱 - Bao

When people use the wrong name "embrace tiger", they think the "cross hands" is the move. It looks like embrace, but it has no embrace intention.

The correct name "well-fed tiger" is the move right after the "cross hands". You stay in a horse stance with both arms cross in front of you. You then start to move into "brush knee". From a static horse stance, you first move your right hand, you then move your left hand. It's like a tiger moves it's right leg and then move it's left leg after eaten.

The "well-fed tiger" is the same move as "brush knee".

[wayne hansen]

Similar but not the same

[Trick]

“High” pat on horse, and there is the “regular” heightened parting wild horse’s mane.

[wayne hansen]

I prefer the name
Wild horse flings it’s mane

[Bao]

Some people say it should be "bao" for leopard as in "Leopard and Tiger Return to [their] Mountain[s]". But a Tiger returning on full stomach seems as the most logic variations.

My teacher said "fen shou" or "split hands" was the original name for "wild horse parting its mane". Then someone turned it into "splitting apart wild horses by their mane", as you had two wild horses and split them apart. And then somehow it was turned into "the wild horse parting its mane," which is a strange name. The wild horse is obviously the subjective, but why would you use "split"? Fling as Wayne suggested or similar seems undoubtedly better. I guess it's just a remembrance of the older name(s).

"Grasp the sparrows tail" is obviously just a misunderstanding of, or maybe originally a joke on, "lazily tying the coat".
From Lan Zha Yi, 懒扎衣 (lazily tying the coat) to Lǎn què wěi (揽雀尾). In Chinese, the character 尾 or wěi (tail) can also be pronounced as "yǐ" as in "yǐ ba" which means also means tail. So you can see that someone with another dialect could easily misunderstand the name.

Single whip is even funnier as "bian" has been understood as "whip", which is a complete faulty translation. Bian is actually the name of the "sword breaker" a metal rod used to defend against swords. I won't even go into how the word "single" has been misunderstood.

[ParadoxTeapot]

"Grasp the sparrows tail" is obviously just a misunderstanding of, or maybe originally a joke on, "lazily tying the coat".
From Lan Zha Yi, 懒扎衣 (lazily tying the coat) to Lǎn què wěi (揽雀尾). In Chinese, the character 尾 or wěi (tail) can also be pronounced as "yǐ" as in "yǐ ba" which means also means tail. So you can see that someone with another dialect could easily misunderstand the name.

Since we're on the subject of names, I would to ask you:

Yang's Rú fēng shì bì sounds a lot like Chen's "Liù fēng sì bì" (Six Sealing Four Closing).
Yang's Bào HǔGuī Shān sounds a lot like Chen's Cover Head Push Mountain (Bào Tóu Tuī Shān).

They are corresponding moves in the form between Yang and Chen. Do you think this lends to any hints on what the names in Yang's sequences were meant originally?

[Bao]

Since we're on the subject of names, I would to ask you:

Yang's Rú fēng shì bì sounds a lot like Chen's "Liù fēng sì bì" (Six Sealing Four Closing).
Yang's Bào HǔGuī Shān sounds a lot like Chen's Cover Head Push Mountain (Bào Tóu Tuī Shān).

They are corresponding moves in the form between Yang and Chen. Do you think this lends to any hints on what the names in Yang's sequences were meant originally?

"Rú fēng shì bì" should be a mistake or come directly from "Liù fēng sì bì". Some dialects don't separate between "r" and "l" and other dialects don't separate "shi" and "si". Just listen to Taiwanese actors, regardless if it's "shi", "chi" or "xi", they just keep repeating "si".

The other name I know very little about, maybe Sal Canzonieri would have better/more input.