Small weapons in CMA?

[BruceP]

Yup, I remember you talking about the relation between tools and IMA mechanics years ago, and it's part of what led me to my question. It was going from sword to truncheon to bayonet to palm-sized weapons in rapid succession that kind of made certain things click for me, and made me think that small weapons are not just an add-in, but quite possibly more integral to the formation of the arts themselves (along with swords and spears, etc.), similar to how it is in Silat and other styles. I think it has to be more that just picking up the tool and asking "how would you hit someone with this?"-- there have to be the follow up probing questions, like what do they do in response and how you account for that, etc. That's where you can see the difference between folks that have learned in theory and those who have actually been there. I'm (thankfully) in the theory category when it comes to the type of lethal force situations that make the differences really important, but I'm also not claiming expertise or teaching anyone.

I worked landscaping in the past, and ever since then have felt that the short handled drain spade is just about the most formidable non-weapon weapon I can think of...

Yeah, I like the offset and slighter curve of the elongated blade on a drain shovel but don't like the D-handle.

The more important question in my post was to see how one would use either a framing hammer or spade to defend themselves. Hitting is the progression/follow-up from their posturing and manner of holding in addressing their idea of how they'd use it.

As tools, they're used in very different ways - aside from breaking up ground to dig a starter hole with a framing hammer, or to pound a stake with a spade. The hammer is single-handed and the spade is two-handed.

As self-defense items, once you follow up on the person's perception/understanding of what a weapon represents in posing the first question, in asking them to show you how they'd use either tool to hit someone is naturally going to have them (almost always) default to the tool's designed utility in how they hold it and wield it. In my meager understanding of improvised weapons, and how to use those two tools for their intended purpose, I've found that both the hammer and the spade can be used in almost identical manner - training long weapon with the spade being mirrored by training short weapon with the hammer.

It isn't so much to do with the utility of those items as 'weapons' as it is to do with adjusting the perception of what a weapon represents be it a punch, kick, rock or stick. My Yang style instructor was also a fencing coach and started a club in our town when I opened my training hall. I hated the formalized training of competitive fencing so never trained with his group - no lateral movement, grabbing, kicking etc allowed. He and I did lots of 'freestyle' with those other tactics included, as well as Florentine style.

His motto having to do with what a weapon represents is/was "It must be de-emphasized before its use can be understood"

[wayne hansen]

What weapon would you prefer
A box cutter or a bazooka

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

What weapon would you prefer
A box cutter or a bazooka

...across a field or in a phone booth?

Small/concealable metal weapons fascinate me as a maker, I wish there were a database of historical examples and specs to look to and see what was used in the past and reverse engineering them in the forge.

[Doc Stier]

What weapon would you prefer
A box cutter or a bazooka

...across a field or in a phone booth?

Small/concealable metal weapons fascinate me as a maker, I wish there were a database of historical examples and specs to look to and see what was used in the past and reverse engineering them in the forge.

That's a very cool idea! I look forward to seeing what you create.

Nowadays, most people don't walk around everyday with rifles, long pole weapons, or with swords and sabers, but nearly everyone probably carries smaller items which can easily be used as weapons for self-defense, items like a drivers license, a bank debit card, a ball point pen, a set of keys, and perhaps even a folding knife, etc. All of those things can be used with the same principles and movement patterns employed with longer traditional weapons.

While I love the graceful beauty and elegant choreography of the traditional kungfu weapon sets, and the feeling of dynamic strength and energy produced in performing them, shorter and smaller objects are more practical, and thus preferable, for personal self-defense, imo. ymmv

[Sea.Wolf.Forge]

What weapon would you prefer
A box cutter or a bazooka

...across a field or in a phone booth?

Small/concealable metal weapons fascinate me as a maker, I wish there were a database of historical examples and specs to look to and see what was used in the past and reverse engineering them in the forge.

That's a very cool idea! I look forward to seeing what you create.

My first official project is from measurements and weights off an 18th century chainwhip. Started it ages ago but got bogged down with running the smithing organization and personal projects took a backseat. It's ready to finish as I have the dart/handle/bars forged, but need to drift the holes in the bars and do the forge-welding on the chain-links. The modern ones weigh ~100g, this one is supposed to weigh 1kg when finished.

I've also got a nice design for deerhorn knives but the frustration with that is historical references and specs because photos are easy to come by but thicknesses, edge geometry, weight, steel choice etc.

[Steve James]

Well, what would be an appropriate style edc for a tcc practitioner? I.e., blade shape, length, handle or no, etc. Is there an expected grip: ice pick, reverse, dagger, finger tip (a la palm knife).

The only problem can be if the design is so effective that it's illegal to carry, and carries a longer sentence if used. So, ideally, it should be inconspicuous yet easy to draw.

[origami_itto]

Nowadays, most people don't walk around everyday with rifles, long pole weapons, or with swords and sabers, but nearly everyone probably carries smaller items which can easily be used as weapons for self-defense, items like a drivers license, a bank debit card, a ball point pen, a set of keys, and perhaps even a folding knife, etc. All of those things can be used with the same principles and movement patterns employed with longer traditional weapons.

Maglight and mini-maglight are both fantastic force enhancers/qinna amplifiers. Cell phone to the temple. I've got a quick-release folder with a glass breaker and seatbelt cutter that I carry.

Ray has a kerambit form, it looks like a fun little toy but definitely is a weapon.

[BruceP]

What weapon would you prefer
A box cutter or a bazooka

Unambiguously, the former is a tool and the latter is a weapon. In a pinch, it'd be possible to use a bazooka as an excavating tool but one should probably learn the solo form and san shou set first

It boils down to liability and intent whether one uses a knitting needle, a shoe or any other object resulting in serious injury or worse, so no 'preference' over here.

The mesh on the helmet I'm wearing in that pic got crushed to less than a half inch from a guy's eye when we were training belts vs dummy sharps. A couple of weeks later, we had to cut a hockey glove off the same guy's hand when the armor plate in the thumb got crushed. We restricted the use of belts with big western style buckles to target practice on inanimates after that. We don't know any forms or san shou sets for belts, though, so we've had to make it up according to what "pressure testing" dictates.

Still waiting to read your thoughts on what constitutes 'correct pressure testing' in the other thread

[wayne hansen]

Anything intentionally used to injure someone is a weapon
Correct pressure testing has to be shown it gets lost in the explaniation
Would like to see film of the brutal confrontations you describe

[Trick]

judges pens as mentioned early in the thread, i learned and practice a JP form from tongbeiquan, not many do this practice today, i was fortunate to learn it.
My teacher carries a pair, modified as in shorter and not so sharp points, similar to the kubotan. He has an ”antique” walking stick with a concealed thin blade like a short sword, but doesnt walk around with it（my father had one of those too but it disappeard）
The home of the tongbeiquan grand-nestor in Dalian is packed with traditional Chinese weapons, as for ”consealed” weapons, he showed me an old fly-whisker that hid a very sharp point at the end where the whisker hairs are attached, another was a traditional Chinese smoking pipe made fully of brass metal（i think is the right word for it.
It was he who told me that traditionally traditional wushu/gong fu was much about hiding ones skill, if it was his own idea or not i dont know, but it sounds sound.

[origami_itto]

it looks like a fun little toy but definitely is a weapon.

Anything intentionally used to injure someone is a weapon

In the USA they pretend to care about human life. If you're carrying a random object that you use as a weapon in the heat of the moment, it plays better in court than if you're walking around with something like THIS in your pocket.

[everything]

I mainly only wonder about this topic when boarding planes. (fortunately, knock on wood) usually not in dangerous spaces except for the idiot drivers around here create some extreme danger. Extremely defensive driving is the main "self defense" skill needed on the daily.

Guess the weapon-like non-weapon objects I have normally at hand when boarding planes are: phone, keys, backpack, maybe a hardbound book. It would be fun (for maybe 2-3 minutes) to practice "forms" holding these objects .... probably xingyiquan 5 elements basics are enough. For the sake of idle chit-chat purposes, probably even more fun to do FMA patterns holding those.

[BruceP]

Anything intentionally used to injure someone is a weapon

That's speaks to a confused perception/understanding of what a weapon represents. You and I are worlds apart in how we view the idea. No big deal.

Correct pressure testing has to be shown it gets lost in the explaniation

"Correct pressure testing" can be whatever you want it to be if you won't show it while claiming that it's lost in explanation. If someone explains HOW they approach the testing, does that mean it isn't 'correct'?

Would like to see film of the brutal confrontations you describe

There's nothing brutal or confrontational in the way we train with intermediary objects over here. We've always kept it recreational. Maybe commitment and contact aren't things you can incorporate into your own training without it being brutal and confrontational.

[origami_itto]

I mainly only wonder about this topic when boarding planes. (fortunately, knock on wood) usually not in dangerous spaces except for the idiot drivers around here create some extreme danger. Extremely defensive driving is the main "self defense" skill needed on the daily.

Guess the weapon-like non-weapon objects I have normally at hand when boarding planes are: phone, keys, backpack, maybe a hardbound book. It would be fun (for maybe 2-3 minutes) to practice "forms" holding these objects .... probably xingyiquan 5 elements basics are enough. For the sake of idle chit-chat purposes, probably even more fun to do FMA patterns holding those.

That's just one reason I always wear my purse.

[wayne hansen]

Would be interesting to see what others think defines a weapon
I just thought it was brutal when thé safety gear gets welded onto the body
What I mean by correct pressure is only using things that would work in a real fight with or without weapons as opposed to what poses for pushing hands these days