Zhong Ding - Understanding Force

[Bao]

When you practice an instrument as piano or violin you'll learn to use your body in a different way than you are used to. The same thing could be said about Taijiquan, though Taijiquan is obviously much more complex as it involves your whole body.

Human Beings and Musical Instruments may not be comparable when we talk about martial arts. Musical Instruments may not be able to think, resist, fight back...........

Lol! An instrument doesn't think. Your hands and legs don't either. Your brain does in all cases. In Martial arts you learn to use your body as a tool. Building a shenfa in the internal arts is about re-learning body movements. Again, I can't see much difference.

Not asking for any to agree or disagree only sharing perspectives and some experiences.

And I am sharing mine. From my +35 years of Tai Chi practice.

"Physicists perform experiments involving an elaborate teamwork and a highly sophisticated technology, whereas mystics obtain their knowledge purely through introspection, without any machinery, in the privacy of meditation.
...
To me seems fundamentally different.

Along with the differences between Western and Eastern thought.

Fundamentally different? Of course it's different. Your example involves meditation, the mind. I am speaking about using the body as a tool or an instrument. VASTLY different indeed.

Thank you, but I know much about the differences between eastern and western thought. I took university classes in Chinese philosophy. And yes, I have also read the Tao of physics.

[wayne hansen]

So what did u think of the Tao of Physics
I was given it in the 70 by a student who was a friend of the author
I never got to the end of it
Still in the bookcase

[Steve James]

Your hands and legs don't either.

Yes, and no. At least, the hands/fingers have a memory. I'm not disagreeing that the brain controls. It's like riding a bicycle, most of it is unconscious.

[Bao]

So what did u think of the Tao of Physics
I was given it in the 70 by a student who was a friend of the author
I never got to the end of it
Still in the bookcase

First time I read it I was about 13 or 14 years old. Back then I tried reading everything I could lay my hands on about Daoism and Chinese philosophy. I thought it was a very good read and it was fascinating to see a book trying to look at reality from different perspectives than I was used to. Re-reading it many years later I didn't find it very special. Information of this kind is quite easy to find nowadays. But sure, it still has its points.

[origami_itto]

When you practice an instrument as piano or violin you'll learn to use your body in a different way than you are used to. The same thing could be said about Taijiquan, though Taijiquan is obviously much more complex as it involves your whole body.

Human Beings and Musical Instruments may not be comparable when we talk about martial arts. Musical Instruments may not be able to think, resist, fight back...........

This is mentioned at 5 minutes into this clip
https://youtu.be/-N3BdBhWdmU?si=dDI4ZB_SW8z9Tc5Z

Have you ever improvised with an instrument in a group?
At all?
Fought with a weapon?
Written a song?

[suckinlhbf]

I can't see much difference.

Have you ever improvised with an instrument in a group?
At all?
Fought with a weapon?
Written a song?

I think you may miss the part "martial arts".

Basic martial arts training and intention is to destroy but not on musical instruments. Fough with a weapon is to use it as a tool to destroy and kill. Written a song....."Kill you softly with a song"? But things totally change if we are not talking about martial arts.

[Giles]

When it comes to discussing the generation and use of force (sorry, ‘force’ if that's not quite the right term here ) in Tai Chi, it’s important to consider the object on which your force is being exerted in order to achieve a desired effect. If I want to move (push) a car, or a wardrobe, or a box weighing about the same as an average adult male, then my most efficient approach is to lean in (at least a little) with my mass, to brace against the ground and to push in the sense just about everybody understands. But if I’m aiming to move (project, ‘push’) a living breathing human being standing on his own feet, then the most efficient and effective approach is to do something else. No matter whether he is being more or less cooperative, resisting or not, then it’s much more useful not to throw my weight against him, NOT to brace against the ground, which will be hugely counterproductive in several ways, but instead to do... all the decent Tai Chi stuff, body mechanics linked to use of mind etc. [Begin new thread / revive old threads here to pick apart what this involves...] Done reasonably well, this other approach using Tai Chi gongfu will destroy their balance, move/push/project the person much further with significantly less effort. In a reproducible, testable way. While also enabling you to defend yourself far better against his attacks, should they materialize. It’s still Newtonian physics, I’m not going all esoteric here. It’s just that a living human body controlled by a conscious mind will behave, respond (and lose its integrated structure) very differently to the kind of inanimate and homogenous surfaces and objects that usually serve as ‘players’ in physical models. Don’t take this completely literally, but to model the elements and relationships in a decent Tai Chi ‘push’ one should also factor in issues of balance, a large and labyrinthine tensegrity web (or actually two webs that briefly merge into one) along with elements of fluid mechanics (or ‘jelly mechanics’? ‘squish mechanics’?).

The corollary being that a skilled Tai Chi push (not a fake demonstration with a stooge) that can truly send an uncooperative person flying with little effort by the part of the pusher will NOT move that old wardrobe. If the Tai Chi practitioner wants to shift his wardrobe, he will need to abandon some parts of his Tai Chi and instead lean in and brace against the ground. Which is very sensible in that situation.

Striking has overlaps with and differences to a push. I think it's more useful to talk here about a push because both a wardrobe and a live human being can be 'pushed'. This makes the differences clearer.

[origami_itto]

True, Taijiquan is not so much about "generating" force per se. That's part of what I'm trying to talk about.

[ParadoxTeapot]

Do you guys feel that Yang Style overemphasizes pushing?

Stereotypically, that seems to be their signature application. Perhaps I'm exaggerating, but in Push Hands and applications, 9 times out of 10, I feel like their go-to approach is about trying to push the opponent far away.

By no means am I saying that's not valid. But it just feels very disproportionate.

Imagine doing patterned Tuishou with Peng, Lu, Ji, An, etc..., it feels like 90+% of the time, their go-to application when breaking the pattern is to just "push" the opponent during Ji. Like, if I were to plot out a histogram of the applications they decide to train or demo, pushing seems to completely overshadow everything else combined.

And in my experience, if you're good enough to nullify their push, they pretty much have nothing left in their arsenal.

[origami_itto]

Do you guys feel that Yang Style overemphasizes pushing?

Point to "Yang Style".

On paper there's 8+5, but most folks have 2 fakes at best.

Not to mention the expanded jin-verse.

[Giles]

Do you guys feel that Yang Style overemphasizes pushing?

Stereotypically, that seems to be their signature application. Perhaps I'm exaggerating, but in Push Hands and applications, 9 times out of 10, I feel like their go-to approach is about trying to push the opponent far away. ...

Yes. And no.

Longer answer…
‘Pushing’ can be very useful when training ‘push hands’. (As long as it isn’t confused with simply trying to shove your partner away using brute force, throwing your weight against your partner etc.). If you can relax, connect, absorb and then project out again (all as part of one action) then it’s a great way of training how to apply force (that word again) from your center and root straight through, or into, the partner’s body. It’s easier to slow this down and train it clearly in the form of a push than when striking; a push can arise easily from the flow of interchange and present itself immediately while still being ‘digestible’ for your partner, and it tends to be much less adrenaline-charged for learners. Then all things being good, the same body mechanics/methodology and use of the mind can be transferred quite easily to striking, throwing, locking, pulling and all combinations thereof. After the basics of correct pushing have been established, and you have two consenting adults, the actual practice of tuishou can start to include these other techniques as they appear. While staying safe and not violating the principles that have been discovered and refined during simple ‘pushing’. If people start gritting their teeth, swinging at each other, violating tai chi principles and/or endangering their partner, then we can always shift back to basic pushing for a while.

Of course, if teachers or students never move beyond actual pushing as offensive technique, then you will mostly get the situation you described in your previous post. And I can imagine you meet a lot of Yang-style practitioners who fit this pattern, although there are surely also plenty who have broader skills. This is also why it’s good to integrate the study and use of applications into push hands. As well as training them separately, I mean. Not just peng, lu, ji, an (although these are key) but also all the other great Yang-style stuff that’s contained in even a shorter form. Actions like Fair Lady, Brush Knee, Dan Bian, Fan Through Back, Crane Spreads Wings, Parry and Punch etc. etc. can all arise smoothly from push hands and don't need to traumatize your partner if you stay centred and relaxed, physically and mentally.

[Steve James]

Imo, it's probably better to talk in terms of understanding (force, strength, energy, jin). There's also those old sayings like:

A feather cannot be placed,
a fly cannot alight
on any part of the body.

Well, ya can take that a couple of ways. But, at least it involves measuring and interpreting the opponent's whatever (and intention). The next part of that passage reads;

The opponent does not know me;
I alone know him.

Of course, if you know those things, then there are always counters.

The why do people push in phs shouldn't be directed at Yang styles at all. But, it's true that push hands competitions are generally pushing contests. Even when pulliing is used in fixed-step, usually both people go out. Anyway, "ji" can be used like a push (and in some Wu, An is used to counter Ji). That's probably because An is not "push" anyway. I was told that why nobody calls it An shou.

Imo, in terms of competitions, it's fine. Some NFL players make a decent living just pushing other people violently. However, in terms of learning all the other stuff in tcc, restricting it to just pushing is limiting. Any opportunity to push is an opportunity to punch, slap, or chop. The two-person form is an opportunity to see how all the other stuff "can" work. That's what tuishou, imo, should aim for -spontaneously.

Why doesn't everyone do something similar? Imo, if we're talking about tcc schools in general, it's not always easy for ph students to get the very basics down. It's hard for them to relax, especially if they're thinking about winning or losing. Then there's getting their bodies to stop doing the wrong things (that unbalance them). Point is, it can be frustrating and lots of people just don't care.

If we're talking about competition. Push hands says nothing about tcc (or bagua, xy, or any tcma). But, after all that, pushing a person on the street can have real value. On one hand, it's a way to keep someone at arm's length. Secondly, it's a good range finder. Third, pushing someone from behind into wall can make someone reluctant to do more. This happened to me in the changing trailer on a construction job. Guy tried to push me, and I pushed him to the other end of the trailer. Aw, that was in 76, Nothing super natural or skillful, it just surprised him. In fact, every time any incident has occurred in my life, the solution ended up being convincing the other person it wasn't worth it.

Never thought about it that way.

[wayne hansen]

So much misunderstanding
What is a boxers jab but a short sharp push with a closed fist
Yang style pushing hands is just one part of a vast system
It should not be emphasised more than any other part
The problem here is most people don’t know the whole system

[Bao]

Do you guys feel that Yang Style overemphasizes pushing?

What Yang style? There are many different schools and lineages. You can’t really generalize them this way.

Practicing pushing is important, or rather essential, because you learn how to uproot and unbalance with as little effort as possible.

But as a fighting strategy, pushing is both overrated and underrated.

It's overrated because it's not an obvious finishing strategy. You also need to learn how to punch, to create real punching power through softness, relaxation and Tai Chi principles.

But then again, it's underrated because it's much better to use a take down or a push than to punch someone. If you can avoid hurting people you avoid both court and retaliation. The best of course is to not answer to aggression and to avoid fighting.

[Giles]

So much misunderstanding
What is a boxers jab but a short sharp push with a closed fist

What misunderstandings do you mean, Wayne? Please reveal. Your remark about the jab and the essential similarity to a push (as regards training methods) is true - do you hear any statements here that contradict this?

But then again, it's underrated because it's much better to use a take down or a push than to punch someone. If you can avoid hurting people you avoid both court and retaliation.

Very true.
Most real physical altercations don't end cleanly like a YT demonstration video ('nice, all sorted'). You may live with them for days, weeks or years.