It's Fascia-nating

[origami_itto]

Let's talk about Fascia because Bao hates it.

It's fascinating stuff, if you haven't seen this video it does a deep dive into the observed properties.


This tissue encases and permeates almost every tissue in the body, in particular the musculature.
So the theory goes in martial arts and body integration circles that this tissue can become bound up and lead to postural imbalance due to residual tension. Rolfing is a modality based on the theory.

In Taijiquan, fascial release is part of sung, we release the muscles and knots that snag our energy in places.

The direct effect of this is a greater overall elasticity of the body unit that helps forces generated at disparate ends of the body to be present at and reinforce each other.

When we get back to the idea of peng and the ball metaphor, the skin of the balloon or ball in any given place is not that strong, but the amount of give in each part of the skin combines when the ball is deformed under pressure, and the combined force of every inch of the ball's surface is present at every inch of the ball's surface to pull it back into the desired roundness.

The fascia when properly arranged and utilized functions in much the same way. It's not the entire thing, but it is a big part of what unifies power across what the western perspective refers to as the "kinetic chain" but generally I've seen them speak about using it differently.

Here's a quick demonstration of what I'm talking about.

Stand up, legs straight, touch your toes.

Where do you feel the pull of the stretch? Can you access that through the entire movement standing back upright? Can you keep it doing cloud hands or brush knee and twist step?

Maybe there's some fascia involved in there.

[everything]

not particularly into this idea either, but since there isn't much to talk about ... am familiar with trying to cut through seemingly that stuff prepping meat. it sure seems to "hold" well.

... nvm "power" for a moment, what is the "fascial release" everyone seems to want/need?

[origami_itto]

not particularly into this idea either, but since there isn't much to talk about ... am familiar with trying to cut through seemingly that stuff prepping meat. it sure seems to "hold" well.

... nvm "power" for a moment, what is the "fascial release" everyone seems to want/need?

The theory is that you get bunches of stuck fascia, so they go through your body part by part in a systematic sequence to release the stuck fascia. Until that gets released the muscle itself can't fully relax, your posture adjusts based on that tension and your body organizes itself around those deficiencies, thereby creating more deficiencies.

Like standing on a rock in your shoe, but you can't get it out out because you're a royal guard or something, I dunno. The pain of the rock makes you put less weight on that foot so the structure has to adjust internally to make that energy flow happen. The longer you hold that deficient posture the more more energy your body is going to put into making that energy flow easier by supporting it.

The more the body adapts around that error, the further you're straying from complete freedom of movement. This fascial release theory overlaps a lot with postural integration and in my opinion both overlap a large part of the practical effects of the training. Some teachers have even suggested going through a rolfing or postural integration regimen is a shortcut to results from the training.

[wayne hansen]

Facia is the new ninjitsu

[Bao]

"Release the fascia"
"Control the fascia"
"Sink into the fascia" etc.

But HOW?

It's ridiculous, but you hear this and similar from a whole bunch of teachers you can find on YouTube and on social maps edit.

But WHAT FASCIA?

Replace "fascia" with "body" and the result will be the same.


Fascia is everywhere in the body, from on the bones to under the skin. It's just a very thin layer protecting and separating all of the muscles and organs. It does and can do absolutely nothing than this.

In Taijiquan, fascial release is part of sung, we release the muscles and knots that snag our energy in places.

The direct effect of this is a greater overall elasticity of the body unit that helps forces generated at disparate ends of the body to be present at and reinforce each other.

...

The fascia when properly arranged and utilized functions in much the same way.

Similar rubbish as usual. You can't release or arrange fascia. Again, it's just a thin layer separating all of the muscles and organs.


This special episode from Ken Gullette's Internal Fighting Arts Podcast explains everything you need to know about fascia:
http://internalfightingarts.audello.com ... r-ginevra/

[origami_itto]

Fascia is everywhere in the body, from on the bones to under the skin. It's just a very thin layer protecting and separating all of the muscles and organs. It does and can do absolutely nothing than this.

Yes it is a part of the body, a particular part, like skin or bones, could you replace body every time you use skin or bones?
In particular here, the idea is that the fascia becomes bunched and stiff due to trauma and chronic tension. This leads to dysfunction.
The only thing it does is help keep things in place and moving past each other, but when there are dead spots of hardness and tension, that function is impaired.
The myofascial release therapy works in a particular order through the body for maximum impact.
There doesn't seem to be any indication the theory isn't accurate. If you look into what they do in the therapy, and what they arrived at empirically, it reaches toward the same body conditions as your foundational Taijiquan training.

The model and modality produces results in people. Might not be for you and that's fine, not my job to convince anybody of anything.

[Bao]

Yes it is a part of the body, a particular part, like skin or bones, could you replace body every time you use skin or bones?
In particular here, the idea is that the fascia becomes bunched and stiff due to trauma and chronic tension. This leads to dysfunction.
The only thing it does is help keep things in place and moving past each other, but when there are dead spots of hardness and tension, that function is impaired.
The myofascial release therapy works in a particular order through the body for maximum impact.

Myofascial therapy is NOT what Tai Chi teachers talk about when they demonstrate Tai Chi.

Please don't confuse the subjects, what I have been talking about all the time and object to is to "use" fascia in a martial arts context, not therapy.

[Giles]

It's fascinating stuff, if you haven't seen this video it does a deep dive into the observed properties.

"Strolling Under the Skin" is a classic in this field!

This tissue encases and permeates almost every tissue in the body, in particular the musculature.
So the theory goes in martial arts and body integration circles that this tissue can become bound up and lead to postural imbalance due to residual tension. Rolfing is a modality based on the theory.

In massage/physical treatment/therapy it is certainly possible to 'speak to' and affect the fascia as a separate entity or organ. When I'm giving a treatment I can, for instance, connect with the skin of the client with a certain (very small) level of force, or with various layers of muscles using a greater level of force (but still gentle) and a different focus, or with significant layers of fascia (actually it's a whole family of different qualities within the 'fascia') which tend to be somewhere in between in terms of the quality of touch one needs to connect. And the fascia will clearly respond. This can be felt clearly as a different quality or sensation, with different effects through the body, by both practitioner and client. And addressed in this way, the fascia can indeed be 'freed up' and connected more broadly, which in turn can significantly affect one's movement perception and movement quality. As the referenced video shows, the (family of) fascia are just as much a significant, living and responding organ within the body as anything else. We wouldn't call the skin 'just an exterior wrapping for the body' as if it were something like plastic clingfilm around us, something inanimate and easy to remove with no significant consequences for the content of the body under it. The fascia are just as much an important, connected part of us as the skin is, not only for motor actions and for 'structure' but also for instance for metabolic transport to and from organs at the micro-level, as the last stage beyond capillary transport.

In Taijiquan, fascial release is part of sung, we release the muscles and knots that snag our energy in places.

The direct effect of this is a greater overall elasticity of the body unit that helps forces generated at disparate ends of the body to be present at and reinforce each other.

This is also true. However... When it comes to training Tai Chi Chuan, I'd say that the specific activation and connection through the fascia will be a result of 'normal' good and intensive training. If you train well, then fascial stretch, unsticking and connection will generally start to happen as a (positive) side-effect. If you have the experience and sensitivity to feel your own body at this level, it can provide feedback that you're training well at a certain moment, that you've hit a good quality and connection by doing what all the Tai Chi classics and any decent teacher will be encouraging you to do anyway.

So I would agree with critics (just) in the sense that putting a strong specific focus on fascia when training is not really helpful, certainly if it distracts from solid traditional training. For some it might be useful, sometimes, while for others it would probably divert away from what's really important. The simple act of extending and opening the body while simultaneously relaxing as much as possible (did I say simple...?), a key aspect of Tai Chi training or indeed of any 'internal' training, i.e. being 'song', is exactly what will also address various levels of fascia. So don't overthink it. Regard it as one type of welcome feedback that you're in the groove, along with other types of feedback.
On the other hand, any kind of hands-on bodywork/treatment (there's a long list) that helps to address, unstick and connect various levels of fascia will also, very probably, be good for your Tai Chi practice and development. As well as being generally good for health.

[origami_itto]

Yes it is a part of the body, a particular part, like skin or bones, could you replace body every time you use skin or bones?
In particular here, the idea is that the fascia becomes bunched and stiff due to trauma and chronic tension. This leads to dysfunction.
The only thing it does is help keep things in place and moving past each other, but when there are dead spots of hardness and tension, that function is impaired.
The myofascial release therapy works in a particular order through the body for maximum impact.

Myofascial therapy is NOT what Tai Chi teachers talk about when they demonstrate Tai Chi.

Please don't confuse the subjects, what I have been talking about all the time and object to is to "use" fascia in a martial arts context, not therapy.

I don't know what other people talk about only what I'm talking about, and this is what I'm talking about, so I'm going to talk about it.

If those other people are talking about something different you can go talk about that with them. I'm talking about what fascia is and what it does. You can argue with all the straw men you like over there *points to brick wall*

As far as in fighting, "connecting to the fascia" may be a misnomer but it's a definite technique that is different than "connecting to the center" so you will probably never acknowledge or utilize it so no need to discuss it, right? You would hit the ball and have no interest in rolling it.

Wu wei, friend, deal with what is present not what we imagine we'd rather deal with.

This is also true. However... When it comes to training Tai Chi Chuan, I'd say that the specific activation and connection through the fascia will be a result of 'normal' good and intensive training. If you train well, then fascial stretch, unsticking and connection will generally start to happen as a (positive) side-effect. If you have the experience and sensitivity to feel your own body at this level, it can provide feedback that you're training well at a certain moment, that you've hit a good quality and connection by doing what all the Tai Chi classics and any decent teacher will be encouraging you to do anyway.

So I would agree with critics (just) in the sense that putting a strong specific focus on fascia when training is not really helpful, certainly if it distracts from solid traditional training. For some it might be useful, sometimes, while for others it would probably divert away from what's really important. The simple act of extending and opening the body while simultaneously relaxing as much as possible (did I say simple...?), a key aspect of Tai Chi training or indeed of any 'internal' training, i.e. being 'song', is exactly what will also address various levels of fascia. So don't overthink it. Regard it as one type of welcome feedback that you're in the groove, along with other types of feedback.
On the other hand, any kind of hands-on bodywork/treatment (there's a long list) that helps to address, unstick and connect various levels of fascia will also, very probably, be good for your Tai Chi practice and development. As well as being generally good for health.

That's exactly the point if you look at your Tai Chi movements and you look at the myofacial release therapy modality there is a lot of overlap in coaxing the body into a more proper overall organization. That new organization is more useful in a martial arts context, full stop.

The standard, regular, traditional exercises, with the new understanding of the recent developments in anatomical science and some new exercises can make our training time more effective and efficient by targeting that release.

[suckinlhbf]

Giles, thanks for explaining the connection from your professional knowledge.

[wiesiek]

mmm, diggin` in my brain`s HD;

when discovered in the west scientist word, there was proposition to name it a "new organ"if I recall it right.
From technical point of the >qi movement< :
Qi is travelling on fascia surface thru the "channels", which, of c., doesn`t exist,

[Bao]

So I would agree with critics (just) in the sense that putting a strong specific focus on fascia when training is not really helpful
...
On the other hand, any kind of hands-on bodywork/treatment (there's a long list) that helps to address, unstick and connect various levels of fascia will also, very probably, be good for your Tai Chi practice and development. As well as being generally good for health.

Exactly. Everything you do affects fascia in one way or another. So why all the fuzz? If you don't have a specific fascia related issue, why even bother about it?

I don't know what other people talk about only what I'm talking about, and this is what I'm talking about, so I'm going to talk about it.

You can talk how much you want about fascia and in any way you want. The fact is that YOU started the thread by addressing ME. So I am definitely doing the right thing for myself and for the discussion to point out that I don't agree with your opinions on this matter and that what you write about fascia does NOT in any way represent my view. I am doing you and the visitors a favor.

Wu wei, friend, deal with what is present not what we imagine we'd rather deal with

I am dealing with what I just said, here and now in the present. If I feel that I am being misrepresented I will address it.

[Giles]

Giles, thanks for explaining the connection from your professional knowledge.

You're welcome.

[wayne hansen]

No doubt that facia exists but show me how it can be used in training

[wiesiek]

..." how it can be used in training..."
You can not use it in training, you train It undirectly for removing all >internal blockades<,
this gives you uninterrupted internal connection, which allows you to use technique as it was designed.