Question about Wu Taiji in NYC

[wiesiek]

takin` difference in size7weight for consideration,
there has be something more, than just better arm move...

[wayne hansen]

Being smaller and lighter is not a disadvantage
Years ago I had 2 students
One a male 6’2 the other female 5’2
I noticed the female due to the height difference only used her arms
He could not reach her
So when they pushed I made him stand in a sunken path that ran through the park
The height difference was negated
They both improved out of sight
Tony Ward who some of you may know from his connection to EM then HSS would come and watch my class on a regular basis
I remember him telling how disjointed he thought she was
6 weeks later he told me she was the best woman he had ever seen do tai chi
I said you do realised that is the same girl thought was so disjointed 6 weeks earlier
Using just the arms will give you victories under certain circumstances but it won’t allow Kung Fu to travel deep into your body
I might be wrong but I am commentating on what I see

[Giles]

No I was referring to the Wu style guy
All indépendant arm action

I see something different. For instance 2:20 to 2:40 or 4:00 to 4:20 in the video. He's clearly using hips/waist to neutralize as well.

And being smaller and lighter is obviously (!) a disadvantage in principle - if the other person is actively using their weight and height instead of good-naturedly keeping it in the background. BT isn't holding back here, and he's also often adopting a longer stance in the fixed-step section. So without some good skill, including use of the whole body, the Wu style guy would be doing much worse against BT. Like I said before, I wouldn't call this high level, and I wouldn't take him as a 100% blueprint, but in my view he's at a solid medium level.

[wayne hansen]

What your saying is the equivalent to saying
Doing the long form he didn’t loose his balance at the 2 min 4min and 8 min places
If you break the principles in one place you break them everywhere
When the pressure is on when the force is great that’s when it counts
It dosent matter when the opponent is playing nice that is just relaxation

[Bhassler]

This is why IMA has just gotten silly. Okay, so it's "all arms." I invite anyone here to take 200 lbs. of weight in any format, and do anything at all with it using "only" their arms. Please post a video for all of our edification.

[suckinlhbf]

This is why IMA has just gotten silly. Okay, so it's "all arms." I invite anyone here to take 200 lbs. of weight in any format, and do anything at all with it using "only" their arms. Please post a video for all of our edification

Don't take it serious, Bhassier. Here is internet forum flooded with keyboard Kungfu. Those can support their words with their clips, like John, Itto, windwalker.... and others are real and worth respecting.

[Trip]

This is why IMA has just gotten silly. Okay, so it's "all arms." I invite anyone here to take 200 lbs. of weight in any format, and do anything at all with it using "only" their arms. Please post a video for all of our edification

Don't take it serious, Bhassier. Here is internet forum flooded with keyboard Kungfu. Those can support their words with their clips, like John, Itto, windwalker.... and others are real and worth respecting.

Why bring this type of ugliness to the board?

Wayne, Giles & Bhassler, posted their POV
without calling each other names
or requiring that the other be disrespected.

[wayne hansen]

Just because some people can’t see something dosent mean I shouldn’t point it out
Sure I’m a keyboard warrior as is everyone here
Why would I waste film of myself on people who can’t see the obvious

[suckinlhbf]

Nobody is born to see everything. There is a learning curse. Don't want to help is fine. But discourage is something else.

[wayne hansen]

I thought I was helping but as u say there might be a learning curse
What is the point of putting up a clip if it’s not for discussion
I was trying to encourage deeper thought and appreciation of the art
As always my duty is to the art not the periferal chatter
Using the epitaph keyboard warrior tends to brand the user with that name

[Giles]

What your saying is the equivalent to saying
Doing the long form he didn’t loose his balance at the 2 min 4min and 8 min places
If you break the principles in one place you break them everywhere
When the pressure is on when the force is great that’s when it counts
It dosent matter when the opponent is playing nice that is just relaxation

I think that's a poor analogy in this case, equating running through one's form and doing free push hands with a partner who's trying hard to get you. So the Wu style guy gets moved slightly, loses his balance a little, in a few brief moments during this exchange. Sure, that happened. So he's not a high-level master, he's not Ma Yueh Liang or someone even close to that. But that wasn't (isn't) what this discussion is about. You started out by saying the Wu style guy is using only his arms (i.e. not the whole body) and is therefore by implication 'not good'. I've pointed out a few sections where he is clearly using his lower body, but you haven't responded to that. I feel you're moving the goalposts somewhat, and also creating a framework that leaves no space for 'good but not great'.

In push hands, the more skilled a partner/opponent is (maybe together with physical advantages), the more challenging it becomes for you. If the partner brings to the exchange a sufficient level of ability, experience and resources relative your own skills, and is trying to get you, then probably he will sometimes. He will cause you to break the principles at that moment. "Nice, you got me." Does that mean you yourself are hence no good, or that you are breaking the principles everywhere? No, it means you haven't yet achieved true mastery, that state where whatever happens, no matter how challenging the other guy is, you never break the principles even for a moment (life can be so cruel ). As a mere mortal on the path, you reflect on these moments when you lost the principles in mind and body, even if just for a fraction of a second, and you try to improve.

Even a champion boxer who clearly wins a fight will usually get tagged, struck or possibly even hurt in the course of it. So what? Ok, maybe this analogy isn't great either. But I still don't get why you seemingly won't give the Wu style guy any recognition at all. Of course he's not a master but I think he's doing pretty well in this situation while being constantly tested. Black Taoist isn't trying to rip his throat out, but within the given push hands framework I don't really see him 'playing nice' either.
And incidentally the Wu style guy also retains good humour and a fairly relaxed attitude to the whole thing.

[wayne hansen]

A boxer may get tagged but he is still a boxer
He still moves like a boxer
He dosent become a ballet dancer or go into a can can
This is what CMC refers to as investing in loss
Accept your defeat at that point don’t stiffen up or use indépendant arm action
Don’t loose your mobility in your legs
I think of it like knife fighting when the knife reaches your body that is not the time to root and use indépendant arm action
That will only get you cut in more places
The reason I doing adress your points is that they are erroneous
Sure he does some things right
A broken clock is right twice a day

[Giles]

A boxer may get tagged but he is still a boxer
He still moves like a boxer
He dosent become a ballet dancer or go into a can can
This is what CMC refers to as investing in loss
Accept your defeat at that point don’t stiffen up or use indépendant arm action
Don’t loose your mobility in your legs
I think of it like knife fighting when the knife reaches your body that is not the time to root and use indépendant arm action
That will only get you cut in more places.

Sure, I'd agree with you on all that. It's how I try to train. I also try to invest in loss every day, and it's definitely helped me start progressing again in the last few years.

The reason I doing adress your points is that they are erroneous
Sure he does some things right
A broken clock is right twice a day

If you're not willing to address my specific points (about the video) but instead talk in generalities, then it's hard to have a conversation. And I feel you are still shifting goalposts. But I'll resist the temptation to repeat what I said before. Anyway, it's no drama. People have heard what you say, they've heard what I say, maybe something useful still comes out of the exchange. And - so far at least - I've found it fun.

[origami_itto]

suckinlhbf,
I appreciate the kind words. I don't claim to be real good but I am showing what I do so there can be no question about it, take it for what it's worth.

The prevailing perspective is that anything less than absolute perfection at all times is just garbage that can't be admitted to exist. Sure, love to see somebody who can just toss the junior around like they are a child, but that isn't always possible and doesn't mean they have NOTHING.

It's a myth. As humans we rise to moments of perfection but very few of us can carry a sustained high level performance of anything.

I mean, if you can, show me. Share a video of yourself dealing with an opponent like this in the way you say is correct. Demonstrate it. Yourself. Show me how you maintain perfect Zhong Ding under that pressure.

Or can you not stoop to sully yourself with such rough energy...

If you can't do it then show me famous masters pushing with high level people who aren't their students who keep that level of composure. We know we are striving for it but who can do it, let's see the film.

That's the shit I live for, honestly, and why I show my own self getting thrown and pushed and stumbling, hoping others won't be so afraid to be seen as mortal.

[windwalker]

I mean, if you can, show me. Share a video of yourself dealing with an opponent like this in the way you say is correct. Demonstrate it. Yourself. Show me how you maintain perfect Zhong Ding under that pressure.

People have, but you and others have in the past denigrated them, or cast aspersions on their students as being some type of flunkies..
You being the exception at least showing your work, they not...

Correct or not, having judged MA events, tend to look at things within the context of their practice regardless of ones own.

Do appreciate you stepping up showing your work.
At least one can see the perspective through your work by which you're speaking or writing from...

With some others not so,,,they continue to make pronouncements about others work all the while never showing their own...
Some do write well,,,might count for something if it was only about the writing..

2024,,,seems like everything can be videoed except ones own work, not that it's a requirement. Or should be one..

Mentioned in light of the comments on this teacher and some of the ones in the past...
IF one watches the video, the Teacher does commenet about just using the hands...shows the results of not doing so..
BT has skill, he is big, longer reach, out weighs the teacher...to think this is not an advantage seems strange
Not just a matter of size and weight difference as some have mentioned

The Teacher has good skill...