Turn your head back

[johnwang]

Some Taiji people when they do "repulse monkey", they turn their head back. I was taught that when I do this move, since my opponent is in front of me, I should not turn my head back.

Do you turn your head back or not?

She turns her head away from her opponent.



At 1.00 - 1.06, there is no head turning there.



At 0.54 - 0.58 also no head turning there.

[Bao]

Yang Chengfu's disciple Niu Chunming does something in between, he checks quickly to the the left and the right, he doesn't look back and his head doesn't follow his hand. Like he is just keeping track of what is happening around him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDEhPddgYkQ



Yang Shouzhong just keeps his head forward (like you, I was also taught this is the correct way, to keep looking forward). I suspect YCF caused the "change" to "look back" in his long frame. Probably it was something starting out just like Niu did, "look to the right" and "gaze to the left", to keep track of your surroundings. But YCF's later students might have overdone it as YCF focused only on the large frame.

In modern Yang style, when the Beijing 24 form is taught, the "look back" is often very evident. It's really a 180° turn of the head, which is in fact breaks the common tai chi rules.

[wayne hansen]

RM is the art of advancing while retreating
It is the only place in the form where you give up your bit of ground
This is because of the strength or speed of the attacker
At no point do you look behind

[Giles]

In the form that I do, we keep looking forwards all the time. Same ideas as Wayne writes.

In movement no. 5 of the 18 Movements Taiji-Qigong (shibashi), which is analogue to Repulse Monkey, I teach a version where the gaze follows the lower dantien a little more to the side as the hips turn, the gaze becoming more 'wide angle' and softer. Looking somewhat off to the side, using peripheral vision (but not looking actually looking backwards). Then the gaze returns to front and becomes a little 'sharper', guiding the upper hand as it moves forwards. Etc. This has benefits too, it does something a little different with the mind, and hence also with the movement qualities between the different phases of the move.

[GrahamB]

Usually you want to look at your opponent, so if you look back or not depends on what application you are imagining for the move.

[windwalker]

Usually you want to look at your opponent, so if you look back or not depends on what application you are imagining for the move.

agree

Seems to be an assumption that there is one or a standard way of doing things when obviously there is not….
Just as the weight distribution between the 2 feet among the different methods is different.

Our weight distribution is 100-0 makes the pivot point tighter….allowing for stepping in any direction
The expression more circular overall rather then linear as those stepping back while looking forward seems to be…


We look back in my practice…there is a transition point, that begins the next movement which starts out by looking in the direction of movement, in part the way we train it involves keeping to the idea that the body, follows the direction of the mind expressed through the eyes.

[Steve James]

Usually you want to look at your opponent, so if you look back or not depends on what application you are imagining for the move.

Imo, yes. I think the biggest issue is whether you're using both hands or just one, and which one. I was taught, however, that you should always be able to see both hands. So, if I'm looking to the right and I can't see my left hand, I've gone to far. Not saying it isn't or can't be done. Actually, it's the same idea with a sword: i.e., if you leave a limb hanging out by itself, somebody'll just chop it off.

For ex., another name for RM is "rolling/reeling forearms" (sorta). The movement can be done 'forward' or 'backward.' But it uses both hands, and always faces the opponent.

I used forward and backward in semi-quotes because some styles go back more at a 45* angle, than directly back. Though I guess that might be what Wayne said about attacking while retreating. Anyway,



In another thread, tongbeiquan was mentioned, and I bet you can find someone who uses the same movement with the tongbei idea.

Here's one for Graham

[wayne hansen]

I wrote it down incorrectly
It should be

The Art of attacking while Retreating

To understand it you should look at how it is applied in Sun Yang and Wu styles the variations tell a lot
The clip above is not very good application
Those that say you should look behind I would love to see a working application for that

I also learned a version from Vietnam that on the last two in each line raised step return was used where you don’t retreat on the last two as if your back was against the wall

[Steve James]

Actually, I was mostly referring to the relation of head and hands. It would be interesting to see some applications with a different relation. The first example in the op is a Beijing form, and I'm not whether it's usually taught with an application.

[BruceP]

Eyes follow line-of-intent, I heard

[windwalker]

Actually, I was mostly referring to the relation of head and hands. It would be interesting to see some applications with a different relation. The first example in the op is a Beijing form, and I'm not whether it's usually taught with an application.

Its hard to see from the clip

Its titled as a training clip, the movement might be done a little differently then from the practice once
all points are tied together...ie whole body movement, eyes leading, single axis, ect...

practices are different depending on teacher and method....one way might be to look at it as shapes comprising of 3 rings qi, 3 gates..

Allowing the mind to guide the qi, the qi to make the movement..over the actual movement..

In this aspect one might look at the solo practices as shapes linked together "unlimited"
instead of techniques with a beginning and ending point "limited"

but useful as a starting point in ones practice...

Never really paid much attention to it, comeing from practices that didn't turn so much Tung/Dong. , Zheng Man Qing /
my last teachers way different from both
the way I play it now...

[wayne hansen]

It is silly to talk of application in the Bejing form
It is not a fighting form and barley a tai chi form

[Steve James]

The Beijing form just happened to be the first one John posted, and I think most agree that the way its done has some problems. Bruce mentioned intention, and that's what's seen in application.

[johnwang]

attacking while retreating.

If you use your leg to hook your opponent's leg (cut, inner hook, outer hook), you are not retreating, you are attacking your opponent's leg. Some Taiji people do this move with leg hook horizontally back.

You use right hand to push your opponent's neck/shoulder,

- left hand to pull his arm, right leg to hook his leading leg (front cut).
- left hand to pull his leg (knee seize).

In both applications, you have to look at your opponent.
No head turning at 6.20 - 6.48.



No head turning at 1.05 - 1.10.

[BruceP]

It is silly to talk of application in the Bejing form
It is not a fighting form and barley a tai chi form

What difference does it make? None of the forms are "fighting forms" if they haven't been tested by the individual that's dancing them. They're all just dances, otherwise, and that's all they'll ever be.

24 form,108 form...the principles don't change - nor do the methods