Lessons from Wu Style: The Square Form

[Doc Stier]

Hey, Dan! Welcome aboard, man. Good post.

As a follow up to my last post here, I have always felt that gatekeeping in regards to beginners should be an equal opportunity scenario. Anyone who is willing and able to seriously practice what they are taught should be given a chance to learn real kungfu.

That opportunity was generously offered to me more than 60 years ago, and I chose to make the most of it. I believe that others should be given the same chance of opportunity.

That said, an equal opportunity doesn't ever guarantee an equal outcome. But the cream will always rise to the top in every generation nonetheless.

[windwalker]

Nice post Dan,

Lots of writing . Interesting history. .

What is it that you feel you got out of it , or could demonstrate showing what you’ve just written about.
Asking out of curiosity without having to read a book .
As they say a picture or video is worth a thousand words .

[Bao]

Interesting post...

Wu Jianquan told Young Wabu that the form he taught to Young was exactly what the Yang's (Luchan and Banhou) taught to him and his father. They did not change the form, as it cannot be changed without altering the structure and weakening the usefulness of the art.

Most Wu stylists agree that the square form is a late addition to teach beginners body movement.

Some people would agree with this as some have said that if you want to learn original Yang style, learn Wu style.

The problem is that some people who say this confuse the two different wu styles. Some say that it's the "small frame" wu (Wu Yuxiang) you should learn wu to understand YLC, not "leaning wu" (Wu Jianquan/Wu Quanyou). Wu Jianquan mixed Tai Chi with wrestling.

Especially since the form taught by Yang Chengfu is said to be different from what his father and grandfather taught.
It is known that Yang Luchan and Banhou preferred small circle over larger circles and frames.

Wu Yuxiang was YLC's direct disciple, his form is based on Old Chen Fist Small Frame form. This is probably what YLC taught Wu Yuxiang.

The small circle Yang form done by Vincent Chu does seem to have some similarities, at least externally, to what Stephen Hwa teaches in the round form.

I have no idea where Chu's small frame comes from, It looks just like Wu style to me. However, I agree that there's smaller or medium frame Yang that seems to have things in common with Wu Jianquan wu style. Vincent Chu has an interesting background, his father studied both Yang and Wu. One could argue that they have mixed Yang and Wu. But this is probably not the whole story. Vincent also studied with Fang Ning. Fang Ning was a disciple to Cui Yiushu, one of Yang Cheng Fu's top students. If you look at Cui's daughter, Cui Yiushi, her Tai Chi is more a medium or smaller frame that also has similarities with Wu! (Wu Jianquan):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8V5m_SSS5o

In the Wu Style Square Form, as taught by Stephen Hwa, it is very important that your body remains perfectly Yin, or still, except for the Yang part, which is moving. Only the Yang part should be moving. Nothing else. Yes, this ties in with what Master Chen Zhonghua teaches in Chen Style Practical Method Taijiquan. Master Chen repeatedly tells his students "Don't move".

Is the purpose the same though? Chen's teacher Hong created practical method form as a tool for separating stillness and movement as in practical practice, in the way you do when you fight, do push hands and practice with a partner. Wu square form seems to be a tool to split up a movement into different parts to better understand the coordination of a form.

It's hard to grasp and people argue with him because it's hard to tell that you're moving.

This is a good video, especially if you know Chinese. Towards the end of the vid he explains that there are different ways do to "not move".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1ASSfbIABw

[wayne hansen]

Chu,s daughter is doing the same as YCF 108
I saw 1 movement that looked like Wu
The step up into white stork
I would like to see VC small circle form

[Dan Bixler]

Nice post Dan,

Lots of writing . Interesting history. .

What is it that you feel you got out of it , or could demonstrate showing what you’ve just written about.
Asking out of curiosity without having to read a book .
As they say a picture or video is worth a thousand words .

Hello Windtalker. I think what I got out of my study of TJQ mostly was health benefits. Nothing magical as I was in pretty good health when I started Master Hwa's Taiji about 15 or 20 years ago, but some benefits. I had a lower back problem and doing the "Taiji walk" that he teaches and the movements of starting every move from the core, turning the waist, stretching from heel to head, etc. seemed to do a lot to make my back feel better and the pain go away. I mainly learned from his videos and email correspondence with him, so I didn't pick up any martial skills beyond moving differently, which was cool when I got to test it. I went to an Aikido dojo after not doing Aikido for several years and used the body method I learned from Stephen Hwa's videos and amazed a couple of junior Aikido students with my "powerful Ki". I told them it had nothing to do with "Ki" and was all about moving your body correctly. Which is probably what Ueshiba and Tohei did, but they didn't teach it as well, maybe.

As far as Practical Method. Kind of the same thing. I'm mostly self-taught other than a day of private lessons with one of Master Chen's long-time disciples, so I'm sure I'm doing more wrong than right. But, again my health has benefitted greatly. At 51, I have no aches or pains or stiffness when I get out of bed in the morning. For a former Marine grunt, who has dabbled in boxing, MMA, and other martial arts, plus powerlifting when I was young - I am thankful for the shape I'm in. I think TJQ helps me stretch things and keep alignments. That's the best I can explain it with my limited understanding.

I would like to learn these arts more with a teacher in the near future and maybe either start a small club in my city, or at least find a training partner. I know I'm not getting much without at least practicing some push hands. Unfortunately my town is mostly BJJ and MMA. There is no Chinese martial arts presence to speak of.

Maybe I will put together something in video form at some point, but I'm hesitant only because I'm likely to give people more wrong ideas than correct ones. I know I have a very limited understanding and may not know what I'm talking about half the time. I once attended a Yin Style Bagua workshop with He Jinbao in Connecticut. He is an awesome teacher as I'm sure some of you know. I had been learning only from the ATS videos up to that point. I practiced YSB religiously for a few years, but without meeting with Jinbao or other experienced students at least a couple times a year, I started to pick up bad habits and kept hurting myself. I stopped doing YSB due to that. I pick it back up from time to time, but can't seem to find the groove again. I guess I'm a good example of how not to learn these arts. I haven't lived very close to where these teachers teach, and haven't always had the best financial or employment situation to just pick up and travel a lot.

I appreciate everyone's kind words and enjoy reading your posts on this forum as I learn a lot here from many of you. At least conceptually. Being able to apply it, will require me to find some like minded people in my area. Maybe some BJJ, MMA people around here have a little respect for Taiji, Bagua, and an old man like me and won't bounce me on my head if I try to train with them.

[Dan Bixler]

Interesting post...

Wu Jianquan told Young Wabu that the form he taught to Young was exactly what the Yang's (Luchan and Banhou) taught to him and his father. They did not change the form, as it cannot be changed without altering the structure and weakening the usefulness of the art.

Most Wu stylists agree that the square form is a late addition to teach beginners body movement.

Some people would agree with this as some have said that if you want to learn original Yang style, learn Wu style.

The problem is that some people who say this confuse the two different wu styles. Some say that it's the "small frame" wu (Wu Yuxiang) you should learn wu to understand YLC, not "leaning wu" (Wu Jianquan/Wu Quanyou). Wu Jianquan mixed Tai Chi with wrestling.

Especially since the form taught by Yang Chengfu is said to be different from what his father and grandfather taught.
It is known that Yang Luchan and Banhou preferred small circle over larger circles and frames.

Wu Yuxiang was YLC's direct disciple, his form is based on Old Chen Fist Small Frame form. This is probably what YLC taught Wu Yuxiang.

The small circle Yang form done by Vincent Chu does seem to have some similarities, at least externally, to what Stephen Hwa teaches in the round form.

I have no idea where Chu's small frame comes from, It looks just like Wu style to me. However, I agree that there's smaller or medium frame Yang that seems to have things in common with Wu Jianquan wu style. Vincent Chu has an interesting background, his father studied both Yang and Wu. One could argue that they have mixed Yang and Wu. But this is probably not the whole story. Vincent also studied with Fang Ning. Fang Ning was a disciple to Cui Yiushu, one of Yang Cheng Fu's top students. If you look at Cui's daughter, Cui Yiushi, her Tai Chi is more a medium or smaller frame that also has similarities with Wu! (Wu Jianquan):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8V5m_SSS5o

In the Wu Style Square Form, as taught by Stephen Hwa, it is very important that your body remains perfectly Yin, or still, except for the Yang part, which is moving. Only the Yang part should be moving. Nothing else. Yes, this ties in with what Master Chen Zhonghua teaches in Chen Style Practical Method Taijiquan. Master Chen repeatedly tells his students "Don't move".

Is the purpose the same though? Chen's teacher Hong created practical method form as a tool for separating stillness and movement as in practical practice, in the way you do when you fight, do push hands and practice with a partner. Wu square form seems to be a tool to split up a movement into different parts to better understand the coordination of a form.

It's hard to grasp and people argue with him because it's hard to tell that you're moving.

This is a good video, especially if you know Chinese. Towards the end of the vid he explains that there are different ways do to "not move".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1ASSfbIABw

Hello Bao. Thank you for the interesting post. I didn't know about Cui Yiushi. I like her Tai Chi. I agree with you that Wu square form is primarily a tool to split up the movements to better understand the coordination of a form. Which is why Master Hwa said it was an inner door form. It was taught to students who were being groomed to inherit and teach the art so that their movements were precise and the same from one generation to the next. But, some of the principles - movement and stillness - would carry over to the round form. At least that is my understanding from reading Stephen Hwa's book and watching his videos.

I do not know Chinese, but I wish I did. It would help me have a better understanding I'm sure. I remember Master Chen Zhonghua said on one of his videos that he teaches a mechanical or structure-based Taiji vs. sensitivity based Taiji. He said most Taiji being taught is sensitivity based. I think Master Hwa's Taiji is more structure based, but still very different from Practical Method. Practical Method, if I'm correct, generates movements from the kua causing the dantian to rotate. Sometimes you may start a move somewhere else, but you are always trying for rotation rather than movement. It's like a bunch of gears or a gearbox. Stretching also seems to be a big component along with the separation of stillness and movement as you mentioned. With Stephen Hwa's Taiji, you originate most movements from the core muscles (abdomen and back). Again that is only my very limited understanding of these 2 methods. I think you and most guys on this forum have a better grasp than me because some of you have spent years studying with good teachers. If you are Chinese, you also have a greater understanding I think. Master Chen mentioned in a couple of his videos that certain concepts were hard to explain clearly in English due to the language and cultural differences.

[windwalker]

Hello Windtalker. I think what I got out of my study of TJQ mostly was health benefits. Nothing magical as I was in pretty good health when I started Master Hwa's Taiji about 15 or 20 years ago, but some benefits. I had a lower back problem and doing the "Taiji walk" that he teaches and the movements of starting every move from the core, turning the waist, stretching from heel to head, etc. seemed to do a lot to make my back feel better and the pain go away. I mainly learned from his videos and email correspondence with him, so I didn't pick up any martial skills beyond moving differently, which was cool when I got to test it. I went to an Aikido dojo after not doing Aikido for several years and used the body method I learned from Stephen Hwa's videos and amazed a couple of junior Aikido students with my "powerful Ki".

I told them it had nothing to do with "Ki" and was all about moving your body correctly. Which is probably what Ueshiba and Tohei did, but they didn't teach it as well, maybe.

How would you know ? Had a very good friend in HI working out, teaching at one of Sensie Tohei's group located there
They were very much into extending the "Ki"

As far as Practical Method. Kind of the same thing. I'm mostly self-taught other than a day of private lessons with one of Master Chen's long-time disciples, so I'm sure I'm doing more wrong than right. But, again my health has benefitted greatly. At 51, I have no aches or pains or stiffness when I get out of bed in the morning. For a former Marine grunt, who has dabbled in boxing, MMA, and other martial arts, plus powerlifting when I was young - I am thankful for the shape I'm in. I think TJQ helps me stretch things and keep alignments. That's the best I can explain it with my limited understanding.

Respect for your service, ret Army

I would like to learn these arts more with a teacher in the near future and maybe either start a small club in my city, or at least find a training partner. I know I'm not getting much without at least practicing some push hands. Unfortunately my town is mostly BJJ and MMA. There is no Chinese martial arts presence to speak of.
Push hands, depending on who one talks with is not a good practice until some basic skill sets have been developed. and one understands what the practice is about.
Even then with out a clear understanding of the practice what is developed is really of little use.
Others may feel differently....

Maybe I will put together something in video form at some point, but I'm hesitant only because I'm likely to give people more wrong ideas than correct ones. I know I have a very limited understanding and may not know what I'm talking about half the time.

My point in asking,,,Many write well, long small books,,,,when a video showing what they feel they are doing , would like to do, or can do would be much clearer..
Many criticize others without showing their own movement,,,feel is kind of a cop out.....

I once attended a Yin Style Bagua workshop with He Jinbao in Connecticut. He is an awesome teacher as I'm sure some of you know. I had been learning only from the ATS videos up to that point. I practiced YSB religiously for a few years, but without meeting with Jinbao or other experienced students at least a couple times a year, I started to pick up bad habits and kept hurting myself. I stopped doing YSB due to that. I pick it back up from time to time, but can't seem to find the groove again. I guess I'm a good example of how not to learn these arts. I haven't lived very close to where these teachers teach, and haven't always had the best financial or employment situation to just pick up and travel a lot.

I appreciate everyone's kind words and enjoy reading your posts on this forum as I learn a lot here from many of you. At least conceptually. Being able to apply it, will require me to find some like minded people in my area. Maybe some BJJ, MMA people around here have a little respect for Taiji, Bagua, and an old man like me and won't bounce me on my head if I try to train with them.
The one that should respect the art is the one who practices it,,,,Many have little respect for CMA in general. Spent much of my life attempting to convince all that I met otherwise....

In the end found it was pointless, fun but pointless.

Depending on level of practice some paths my seem the same, or can be quite different even opposite of ones intended direction
It's almost better to do nothing, unless one is well versed with some basic background to work with....
Learning from other students kinda hit or miss....although one may find it interesting

Many online courses these days,,,,almost to easy.
There may be CMA teachers not teaching publicly in your area...
Might be a good idea to check out some of the local Chinese temples, restaurants or associations in your area...ya never know.

Best of luck....
should you have anyother questions offline is good..

[edededed]

Thanks Wayne, Bao, Dan, others.

I guess that square is more for precision and angles and releasing.
I did not learn a square form for Wu, but I was taught to maintain the square angles.
I also did not hear of the yang/yin meaning movement/stillness in the form (as Dan mentioned), but I was taught to differentiate the movement and stillness.

Some teachers performing look rounder - it could be like Wayne said, that they learn it "square" and make it "circular" themselves.

(Bao) Cui Yishi's daughter: looks just like "standard" Yang to me - what parts look like Wu?
(I used to practice with a teacher from that line.)

[wayne hansen]

The square form is also called the
E AR SUN form or 123 form
That is due to how it is broken up
Tan Mon Hung who three of my teachers learnt from has a beautiful book with the whole breakdown if anyone wants to reengineer their form
My student Richard who learnt with Ma’s son in Holland learnt it to a 1234 count
I have never been able to workout how

[edededed]

Interesting Wayne - I also learned from the Ma line, but not in 123 or 1234 - although I guess some postures can be divided like that.

[wayne hansen]

Did you learn the square form or the circular

[edededed]

I wasn't told that it was "square" or "circular" - just "slow"

Based on your and others' descriptions, I guess that mine feels like something in between?
(Some people say that Wu style looks robotic (maybe as a result) - I used to think so before I learned it, too...)

[Bao]

I remember Master Chen Zhonghua said on one of his videos that he teaches a mechanical or structure-based Taiji vs. sensitivity based Taiji. He said most Taiji being taught is sensitivity based. I think Master Hwa's Taiji is more structure based, but still very different from Practical Method.

I don't really remember him saying that, though it seems plausible he did. IMHO, both are needed. Tai Chi is very subtle. Balance keeps affecting your structure all of the time. You can't really learn to understand how to keep structure and balance in a purely intellectual manner. Learning "correct postures" is also not enough. You need to learn how to feel it from the inside. So understanding balance and structure in Tai Chi is based on your own awareness and sensitivity. No teacher can teach you what is absolutely correct by adjusting your posture. If you are not constantly aware of and feel your alignment, you will lose it. IMO, awareness and sensitivity comes first and is always most important, because if you don't know how to feel what is correct from inside, you will never get "alignment", "posture" and "mechanics". I appreciate CZH's enthusiasm and generosity as a teacher, sometimes though I have a feeling that it could easily become a bit shallow and external, with the main focus on external shapes. But then again, I have only seen clips from what he does and I don't know anything about his position when it comes to things as internal awareness.

[ParadoxTeapot]

I recall reading a comment from one of Chen Zhonghua's students that Chen Zhonghua no longer teaches patterned Push Hands. Apparently, he used to a long time ago.

But come to think of it, I don't remember seeing a video of him doing any of the traditional old-school patterned push hands drill.

I wonder if what I read was true. And if so, I wonder why he stopped teaching it. Yang, Wu, Chen... they all have those old-school traditional patterned push hand drills.

I remember seeing Hong's other disciples showcasing them.

[Bob]

FYI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_9hGbClAP8

Stephen Hwa Demonstrates Small Circle Tai Chi Square Form. This is the form taught by Master Wu Chien Chuan for new students.
ONLINE COURSES: Now includes access to the WhatsApp Classical Tai Chi Group.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uo9lQ6azVA





Classical Tai Chi Forum 16 -silk reeling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q_4LnKxkNw

What Is Small Circle (Frame) Tai Chi?