Lessons from Wu Style: The Square Form

[origami_itto]

Try emptying your cup..

Show me something worth putting in it.

So far your pitcher seems pretty dry.

[origami_itto]

My teacher Dr. Xie said that Post Heaven/natal is literally everything that you do after you are born. It’s how you can manipulate your epigenetic dna in either a healthy or unhealthy way.

Pre Heaven is the dna that you are born with.

So most of the musings that you come across about Pre and Post Heaven are gibberish, unless the musings actually teach a student something, then that fact alone gives that interpretation it’s own intrinsic value that can’t be discounted.

Yeah that's why I'm thinking maybe it's just implied and he wanted to dress it up a bit?

I dunno. In other texts when they mention prenatal and postnatal in connection with meditation they use specific characters that I didn't see there is all I'm saying.

There's a concept in spiritual studies of "the heresy of translation" when multi-dimensional information has to collapse into a single aspect of meaning to pass through the pinhole of translation only to explode into a new multi-dimensional meaning on the other side.

[Steve James]

It's taichi, not just taijiquan. "Straight" is a mathematical concept. It's a way to describe points A -> B on a plane. So, in general, we'd say the shortest distance between two point is a straight line, and that'd also be the fastest way. But, it's not true in 3D space. Airplanes don't fly straight, because the Earth is curved.

Gravity (from the Earth's mass) will cause any arrow to make a parabola. However, just saying that doesn't mean that ''straight" isn't an accurate description of an arrow hitting the bullseye on a target. For our intents and purposes, the shortest distance from fist to face can be a straight punch. But, which joint in our body works "straight"? Imo, we use the curved to obtain the straight.

Imo, when the Classics have discussed going from large circles to smaller ones, the smallest is a single point -which is at once a circle, but put together a line. How does one "square the circle"?

Afa the Wu square form, I tend to agree that everyone learns their form "square." My first teacher was simple; we'd learn half a movement, "1,2" then "Ok, practice" for the rest of class. No one said anything about making it circular until people got the choreography down.

[wayne hansen]

Bao hold an arrow out in front of you and let go
It will fall to earth Gravity
Those here who talk about high skill in tai chi and can’t show it in pushing stop pretending you know
If you know it is in your body

[windwalker]

Try emptying your cup..

Show me something worth putting in it.

So far your pitcher seems pretty dry.

"So far your pitcher seems pretty dry".

there is no pitcher,,,,
there is no pitcher to empty or fill...

Everything a matter of level, skill, ability
either of oneself or from those one has met helping one to discover the hidden truth within.

The explanation of the methods of taiji skills training (taiji gongfa shuoming).

One day in the spring of 1984 my school brothers invited our teacher to have a walk in the Xiangshan park. The teacher had especially good mood that day walking with us, and we had decided to take photos. I wanted to imprint some form postures of him and asked the teacher to do the "White crane spreads wings" posture.

The teacher (agreed but) didn't raise his hands. Smiling, he allowed me to take a picture of the formless "White crane spreads wings".

I said, so I can imprint only mental attitude and qi-shi (momentum of qi), not the posture.

The teacher had clapped the hands and said:

"That's right! To lift the hands is WCSW, but this is internally performed WCSW!"

Suddenly I saw the light, it was the "aha moment" for me.
I started to see the originally formless internal work of shen, yi and qi.
From that time I became (more) interested in the studying of taiji skills.

[origami_itto]

That's a very nice story but it tells me nothing I can use.

I realize that's entirely due to my ignorance and low level, but I guess that's just where I'm at, so I should stick with what is now perceptible until something more reveals itself. I'll ask my teacher about that stuff.

[Bao]

Bao hold an arrow out in front of you and let go
It will fall to earth Gravity

Sorry, but I go with Einstein, his explanation is that "gravity" is not a separate force and it doesn't make things "fall". It's a distortion, or curvature, of space.

I wrote:

there's nothing such thing as a "gravitation" force pulling things down. There's no force at all, it's the mass of the earth that curves the space, and this curvature acts as drawing and pushing things down towards the center of this space distortion.

So if I let go of an arrow, it's both drawn and pushed towards the center of the distortion, or it follows the curvature of space.

(I was just messing with the two persons who commented on the arrow.)

[origami_itto]

Bao hold an arrow out in front of you and let go
It will fall to earth Gravity
Those here who talk about high skill in tai chi and can’t show it in pushing stop pretending you know
If you know it is in your body

Are you saying that, unless you demonstrate something, you should shut up about it?

[Doc Stier]

I am not and never have been a practitioner of Wu Style TCC. However, regarding the Circle and the Square in the pre-1930 version of Yang Style TCC I was taught, from which the Wu Style was originally derived, the Square aspect of the art refers to the geometric angles of a square between the feet in any stance and to the geometric angles of the footwork when actively stepping.

The Circle aspect of the art refers to the curved joints and rounded shapes of the form set postures and to the totally circular patterns of the transitional movements connecting the postures in every form set or repeated drill.

[windwalker]

I am not and never have been a practitioner of Wu Style TCC. However, regarding the Circle and the Square in the pre-1930 version of Yang Style TCC I was taught, from which the Wu Style was originally derived, the Square aspect of the art refers to the geometric angles of a square between the feet in any stance and to the geometric angles of the footwork when actively stepping.

The Circle aspect of the art refers to the curved joints and rounded shapes of the form set postures and to the totally circular patterns of the transitional movements connecting the postures in every form set or repeated drill.

one way of looking at it,
echoes what we use in our practice...




Another way, might be the practice itself, practiced this in Hawaii

[Doc Stier]

Quite so indeed. The practice itself is meant to demonstrate the union of the Circle and the Square.

[Appledog]

Try emptying your cup..

Show me something worth putting in it.

So far your pitcher seems pretty dry.

Tai Chi is one family. If you do not understand this, or if you disagree, or if you are not in the "one family" then you are not in tai chi.

If a son is a son of a father then how is the grandson not a son of the son of the father? The truth please. Why does everyone's tai chi form is different? Well, really look, is it really and honestly true that everyone's tai chi form is different? Is that what you see? Or did you overlook something important?

[origami_itto]

I fail to see your point.

I don't care how much better somebody is than me or how much more they know. If they want to talk tech and training, sure love pointers.

But all they've ever offered is "you suck".

I've got plenty of that in my cup already.

Many people I talk to if they notice something are free with suggestions, they want to see me do better. Online and in person.

These guys just want me to know im not as good as they are. Cool. I don't want a thing from them.

Like I study tai Chi because it's interesting and makes my body stronger.

Some of these guys it just seems like they need a power exchange dynamic and are afraid of fetlife. Tai chi is the worm they use to hook sycophants.

Feels like some are really upset that I've got access to better instruction.

So fine you know, condescend, doubt, disagree, argue, makes no never mind to me.

Nobody here is my teacher. The best you get is cordial. If you want to talk concrete actions to improve skill, lets do it. I know I suck, tired of hearing it.

[Dan Bixler]

For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents. I won't bore you with my long history of internal arts study beginning with Ki Aikido when I was about 25. But eventually I found an interesting teacher of Wu Taijiquan, named Dr. Stephen Hwa. I know some of you are familiar with him, but I don't know how much you've looked into his teachings. He spent decades studying from Yang (Young) Wabu.

To give some historical context, during the tumultuous period of war breaking out with Japan in the late 1930s, Wu Jianquan lived with Young Wabu at his home in Hong Kong for a couple of years. Young learned and practiced Wu Taijiquan with Wu Jianquan day and night during that time. Young was an accomplished master of external martial arts before he met Wu Jianquan. After being defeated by Master Wu, Young decided to devote his life to Wu style taijiquan.

You can read more about Yang (Young) Wabu here - https://www.classicaltaichi.com/about-t ... sters.html and here - https://fliphtml5.com/zbap/atuw/basic

Master Hwa also has a YouTube channel and lessons on Teachable under Classical Tai Chi. He also has some DVDs for those of you who still have DVD players, and he put the entire square form, move-by-move in PDF form that you can download for free if you're curious. He is a very brilliant and generous teacher. At one time, he was willing to go out of his way to meet with me in Pennsylvania when he was traveling through the state. I regret missing that opportunity. He lives in Florida now and as far as I know, is still going strong at 90. His teacher, Yang Wabu lived to be 101.

Master Hwa said that the square form was not taught to just anybody in the past, it was a special form reserved for inner door students. The main reason for this had to do with the fact that it ensures precision of movement, so the form does not get altered or diluted over time. Wu Jianquan told Young Wabu that the form he taught to Young was exactly what the Yang's (Luchan and Banhou) taught to him and his father. They did not change the form, as it cannot be changed without altering the structure and weakening the usefulness of the art. Some people would agree with this as some have said that if you want to learn original Yang style, learn Wu style. Especially since the form taught by Yang Chengfu is said to be different from what his father and grandfather taught. It is known that Yang Luchan and Banhou preferred small circle over larger circles and frames. The small circle Yang form done by Vincent Chu does seem to have some similarities, at least externally, to what Stephen Hwa teaches in the round form. Master Yang Wabu was a very strict teacher, who only taught his students Square Form, until they were proficient, at which time they learned the round form. The Square Form is a template for the round form. The basic round form would be learned more easily after mastering the square form, but that's just the beginning. You have the rest of your life to then improve the round form and learn what Master Hwa calls "internal discipline" as well as learn push hands, weapons, etc.

The other point of square form brings me to my next point. Taijiquan is the separation of Yin and Yang. Forget about all that grand ultimate fist stuff. When Chen Wanting started it, he was a Taoist and wanted to implement ideas of Taoism into Taijiquan. It's right there in the name. You cannot have Taijiquan without the basis of it, which is separation of Yin and Yang.

In the Wu Style Square Form, as taught by Stephen Hwa, it is very important that your body remains perfectly Yin, or still, except for the Yang part, which is moving. Only the Yang part should be moving. Nothing else. Yes, this ties in with what Master Chen Zhonghua teaches in Chen Style Practical Method Taijiquan. I have not yet met Master Chen, but plan to either this year or next, as he regularly comes to NYC to do workshops. I did however, take a private lesson from Michael Calandra, who is a long-time student and disciple of Master Chen Zhonghua. I also own about 100 of Master Chen's videos. I'm far from understanding much, but I think I get the core principles. Doing it correctly is another matter altogether.

Master Chen certainly emphasizes this separation of Yin and Yang in his teaching. You cannot have power without it. If your whole body is moving, or you're moving things that shouldn't be, we call that "tossing". Master Chen repeatedly tells his students "Don't move". It's hard to grasp and people argue with him because it's hard to tell that you're moving. Practical Method can certainly look robotic, especially when you're first starting. This is where beginners in Practical Method certainly appear to be doing a Square Form, similar to Wu TJQ square form. It wasn't meant to look pretty, it was meant to teach a body method to work in combat and it just happens to be great for health and fitness, as many of these arts are. Master Chen has mentioned that he's not just teaching a martial art, he's teaching a body method. You can do more with that than martial arts. One of his students used it to improve his tennis game. Ironically, Master Hwa mentions how TJQ improved his tennis game, as well.

I could go on and on about all of this, but in my opinion, there is what I call a "golden thread" that weaves all of these Taijiquan forms and styles together. That starts with separation of Yin and Yang in your movements, but there is much more there that I haven't uncovered yet as far as what is familiar in different styles of Taiji. Yes, the forms look very different. Nobody really knows exactly what Chen Changxing taught to Yang Luchan, but it's not too hard to see similarities between the styles if you look for them. They may have changed a bit over the years, but I still believe that really good Taijiquan has survived at least in principle, even if the forms have been altered a bit. Some styles seem to have lost some important material, but it's worth discussing and checking our ego at the door if we want to understand and improve. I am not knowledgeable enough in Practical Method to know if you work towards a smaller frame when you become more advanced. I would like to ask Master Chen about this someday.

I may be wrong about all of this. I'm no master or expert. I'm just a ham and egger who has had a lifetime interest in martial arts and enjoys practicing for the health benefits, fitness, mental exercise, challenge, and fun. Please don't take my word for any of it, but look into what these teachers have to say and form your own opinions. You may have to spend a few bucks and some hours watching their videos and reading their articles. You shouldn't form an opinion on most people based on one or two YouTube videos. I do know that these arts are hard to grasp and very difficult to do even somewhat correctly. Enjoy the journey.

[wayne hansen]

It seems funny that the square form is the secret form and only taught to inside students
Every teacher I have seen today teaches the square first then the circular
I was told the exact opposite that Wu only taught the square and told students to go away and make it circular
I don’t know which theory is correct but I know which one makes the most sense
My second Wu teacher did the square circular and the YBH forms
He also did knife sword and walking stick
Along with a silk reeling set (Wu) and the 24 noi gung
He only did the YBH form for demonstrations
He though things like the jumping Double kick looked good to the audience