Dan Bian: Dispelling Some Myths About Single Whip

[D_Glenn]

The front hand is holding the sword breaker, the rear hand is holding a spear. The story is that General Dan parried his enemy's spear with his own spear, pulled up his sword breaker, smashed his enemy's chest and killed him. That is why you have the bian in "wrong" hand, or the left hand. The right hand holds the main weapon which is the spear.

Exactly what story or manual are you referring to?

He would have to be a strong man to use a spear with only one hand.

.

[Bhassler]

In this context it doesn't matter what the word can mean. Chinese is a contextual language and the meaning of a word in its context becomes specific. The name clearly refers to a solid sword breaker. If you interpret it as a "whip-like" movement/strength, then your understanding of the jin is completely wrong.

Have you ever used a mace, truncheon, or sword-breaker? You "snap" them, because they bounce when they hit something, and you want to take advantage of that to flow into your next strike. You also have to think about recovery, as it's too slow to recover if you miss when you take a heavy swing.

Just let us agree to disagree, that is if you mean snap as a pull back. When you hit with this kind of weapon you want to hit heavy, letting it really go through the target. It’s more like hitting with a hammer, you want the weapon to do the work. Not like using a whip.

Yeah, snap was not a good word. It's similar to a hammer in some respects, but is (and needs to be) more agile in recovery and changing directions, as nails generally aren't moving around and trying to stab you in the face while you swing at them. On the plus side, the bian doesn't have an edge or flat striking surface that needs to be aligned a particular way, so that adds flexibility.

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As general food for thought, I'll re-iterate that bians weighed about the same amount as swords of the same length, so the idea of this massive smashing weapon is not correct. It may have operated that way when wielded by horsemen on the battlefield, but that's as much a function of the horse as it is the bian. Taiji came about towards the end of the whole "large scale battles using cold weapons" era, and certainly any style other than Chen would likely have evolved well into the civilian usage phase, so that may be worth consideration if folks are thinking about the likely usage of the tool and associated meanings.

[wayne hansen]

Yes I never bought in to the battlefield concept
You teach grunts something simple
Maybe protect the village

Chinese saying

You don’t make nails out of good steel
You don’t make soilders out of good men

[wayne hansen]

https://www.facebook.com/share/kfNEYtif ... tid=WC7FNe

[Bhassler]

It seems Scholagladatoria disagrees with me on at least a couple of points, and I won't argue with him given a specific historical context:


I would offer the caveat, though, that tiebian can refer to a number of weapons, ranging from a heavy bar mace to flat bars to weapons that are quite similar to Japanese sai. So I think the points about civilian usage still stand.

Here he's talking about some aspects of stick fighting that could apply just as well to a bian.

[wayne hansen]

Nice vid
Using Cacoy Canyetes curbing strike
Nice Abanico and watic
If his angles were a bit better he would generate more power

[wayne hansen]

Just watched the first vid
My teacher is a student of ancient weapons
He told me about a dig they did where they found a whole lot of bodies they found with shattered shins
This was done with a heavy wooden sword
The reason it was used was that it was very easy to shatter the shins leaving the enemy unable to walk and bleeding to death
I can see those jian type maces being used in that manner
The FMA use of the stick can be used to shatter rather than cut

[GrahamB]

Don't know if this will work. From: https://www.facebook.com/ChineseArmorAr ... 469708439/



"This brick carving is from a tomb of Jurchen Jin (1125–1234), discribing a battle between Song and Jin cavarlies.
The one who faced to us with a sword breacker 锏 might be Jin cavalry, who snatched the pole weapon (三尖两刃刀, lit. 'Three points double edged blade' fig. 3) away from Song cavalry and swung his sword breacker 锏 to attack his head from right to left. Song cavalry’s head and helmet were totally whacked.
Well, pole weapon user should always keep distance with enermy and, such blunt weapons like mace, sword breaker etc. are really excellent weapon against heavy armor.
Picture 2 was drawn by 咪咪妈的刘sir."






I mean, it's not a million miles away from the application of single whip in Tai Chi. Your arm/hand is the 'sword breaker':



from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBfu5N8mxs

[GrahamB]

Nice thread, I've blogged it up.

https://thetaichinotebook.com/2024/03/1 ... ture-name/

Obviously, the true application is this:

[Steve James]

Kong is a coincidence given the tongbei thread.

But, I was looking at the photos comparing three tcc SWs, and noticed that CFK seems to be standing in more a "riding tiger" stance: both feet slightly turned out, but the direction of trunk and gaze is centered. YCF is in a narrow forward stance, but his trunk faces diagonally and his gaze is forward. Wu style, however, uses a horse stance; the body is more centered and the gaze seems slightly diagonal.

The differences in foot position, trunk direction, and direction of gaze make them seem more dissimilar than similar. The warrior in the earlier picture wielding a sword breaker is physically riding a tiger.

[everything]

from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBfu5N8mxs

incredibly out of context, love how he's laughing/smiling so much in that snapshot.

strangely, King Kong seems to be as well.

Been doing it totally wrong all this time!!!!

[Bhassler]

Don't know if this will work. From: https://www.facebook.com/ChineseArmorAr ... 469708439/



"This brick carving is from a tomb of Jurchen Jin (1125–1234), discribing a battle between Song and Jin cavarlies.
The one who faced to us with a sword breacker 锏 might be Jin cavalry, who snatched the pole weapon (三尖两刃刀, lit. 'Three points double edged blade' fig. 3) away from Song cavalry and swung his sword breacker 锏 to attack his head from right to left. Song cavalry’s head and helmet were totally whacked.
Well, pole weapon user should always keep distance with enermy and, such blunt weapons like mace, sword breaker etc. are really excellent weapon against heavy armor.
Picture 2 was drawn by 咪咪妈的刘sir."






I mean, it's not a million miles away from the application of single whip in Tai Chi. Your arm/hand is the 'sword breaker':



from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHBfu5N8mxs

Nice.

QFT

[Bao]

The front hand is holding the sword breaker, the rear hand is holding a spear. The story is that General Dan parried his enemy's spear with his own spear, pulled up his sword breaker, smashed his enemy's chest and killed him. That is why you have the bian in "wrong" hand, or the left hand. The right hand holds the main weapon which is the spear.

Exactly what story or manual are you referring to?

He would have to be a strong man to use a spear with only one hand.

.

I am referring to the exact same story I brought up earlier in the exact same thread (this thread).

Strong? Depends on what kind of spear, right? Doesn't matter, it's just a story.

[Graculus]

@Steve

and noticed that CFK seems to be standing in more a "riding tiger" stance: both feet slightly turned out, but the direction of trunk and gaze is centered.

I think that the move in that picture is not dan bian – it is a move that comes a little later (with the hands reversed…a right palm, left hook) and is addressing an opponent standing roughly where CFK is looking. In dan bian, he would still have his torso and face turned at 90 degrees to the direction the left arm is pointing, but his opponent would be facing his left ear. The face has just turned from facing that direction.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[GrahamB]

incredibly out of context, love how he's laughing/smiling so much in that snapshot.

strangely, King Kong seems to be as well.

Been doing it totally wrong all this time!!!!

This is the way! Human beings just learn better through play. I always like to keep the majority of the training 'light' and playful with added dashes of intensity.