Dan Bian: Dispelling Some Myths About Single Whip

[Steve James]

8:13 Adam Hsu on SW.

[Bao]

Note the miss and recovery, that's one reason why you whip inside. Another reason is accept the rebound. The structural steel I'm bashing weighs well over 100 pounds. The hammer weighs 8 pounds, i think. I enjoy bashing things. The closest jin for this at impact is 'an', feels like squeeze and stretch or stretching squeeze. The miss and recovery feels like single whip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOAve2CN3PY

Good demonstration. Exactly, the intention is to "squeeze", or internally "stretch" into the target, not to "pull back" the weapon like a whip. You recover automatically when you miss if you are in balance and have a good structural support behind the strike/hit.

If you look at videos when people train the bull whip and screw up hitting themselves or others is that they can get nasty cuts in their face or on the arm, but they never cut off their whole head or arm. A sword is used to cut off things, a sledge hammer for breaking things. Each weapon has its own use, you shouldn't try to use one weapon as another. If you want to learn how to penetrate your target and make real damage, you shouldn't focus on developing a "whip-like" power. Instead you should learn to use the arm like a tool and support the "tool" on the impact with your whole body, and stretch into the target.

[origami_itto]

Note the miss and recovery, that's one reason why you whip inside. Another reason is accept the rebound. The structural steel I'm bashing weighs well over 100 pounds. The hammer weighs 8 pounds, i think. I enjoy bashing things. The closest jin for this at impact is 'an', feels like squeeze and stretch or stretching squeeze. The miss and recovery feels like single whip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOAve2CN3PY

Good demonstration. Exactly, the intention is to "squeeze", or internally "stretch" into the target, not to "pull back" the weapon like a whip. You recover automatically when you miss if you are in balance and have a good structural support behind the strike/hit.

If you look at videos when people train the bull whip and screw up hitting themselves or others is that they can get nasty cuts in their face or on the arm, but they never cut off their whole head or arm. A sword is used to cut off things, a sledge hammer for breaking things. Each weapon has its own use, you shouldn't try to use one weapon as another. If you want to learn how to penetrate your target and make real damage, you shouldn't focus on developing a "whip-like" power. Instead you should learn to use the arm like a tool and support the "tool" on the impact with your whole body, and stretch into the target.

So if you "Pull back" on a bull whip, you're gonna hit yourself in the face. Particularly if you're trying to hit a particular target you want follow through. The wave that you're sending down the length of the whip starts at the handle but once its going it's going and all you can do is mess it up.

You want to think about reaching your hand out and touching them with your mind. It will follow your mind so if you pull back you're asking to eat it.

On the rebound, a human being isn't an anvil. If they block with a sword it's going to give, and if you hit them in the head or body, it's going to give. A heavy weapon on it's own isn't going to bounce enough to give you a useful strike in the other direction, you need to get all that momentum back up again by using your body.

Something with a lighter blade and heavier handle will snap back but a heavy blade isn't going to want to come back.

If you time it right with whatever rebound you can get and you rotate around the correct pivot in the weapon, then you can get a ton of power in your 1-2 strike.

[Bao]

Something with a lighter blade and heavier handle will snap back but a heavy blade isn't going to want to come back.

If you time it right with whatever rebound you can get and you rotate around the correct pivot in the weapon, then you can get a ton of power in your 1-2 strike.

Your hand is not a blade, it can't split something or slice something. It's not a good comparison. Again, you shouldn't try to mix the use of one weapon with another one. A blade can break if you try to use it as an axe or a club.

Also, you need consider strategy. In the martial arts, you would rather want to use the first attack or attacks as set-ups. Fully committed energy is applied when you know you can penetrate or enter the opponent's defense.

Attack patterns as attacking with lighter and heavier blows:

light - light - heavy
light - heavy - heavy
light - heavy - light - heavy - heavy

[origami_itto]

Something with a lighter blade and heavier handle will snap back but a heavy blade isn't going to want to come back.

If you time it right with whatever rebound you can get and you rotate around the correct pivot in the weapon, then you can get a ton of power in your 1-2 strike.

Your hand is not a blade, it can't split something or slice something. It's not a good comparison. Again, you shouldn't try to mix the use of one weapon with another one. A blade can break if you try to use it as an axe or a club.

Also, you need consider strategy. In the martial arts, you would rather want to use the first attack or attacks as set-ups. Fully committed energy is applied when you know you can penetrate or enter the opponent's defense.

Attack patterns as attacking with lighter and heavier blows:

light - light - heavy
light - heavy - heavy
light - heavy - light - heavy - heavy

How much experience you have with sword and shield combat?

The bian and dao are 90% similar in usage, particularly on "the battlefield" with other mele weapons and armor involved.

What I'm describing is a technique that causes the opponent to have to block on both sides in a very short span of time, and with greater familiarity you can vary the angles to be almost any attack you like.

[Steve James]

Maybe I'm wrong but, from a practical perspective, I'm not sure a "sword breaker" attacked swords; rather, swords would break on them. That doesn't mean they were purely defensive; they were probably more effective as blunt force weapons, especially against armor.

It seems the big question here is about the name "whip." Fwiw, I don't think the idea was anything like the traditional cowboy 'bull whip'. I'm not even sure that sort of whip was prevalent in Asia. It's not what's been pictured earlier as a bian. So, we're not talking about that. In terms of a whipping action, however, as wayne said, it's the body that's doing the whipping.

But, using the bull whip analogy, all the happens is that a force starts at a root (handle/body) and is transmitted to the tip (fingers). That sounds familiar. Afa the necessity of the whip needing to go backward before going forward, that's also a familiar tcc idea. I'll get flamed, but try to jump up without going down.

[wayne hansen]

The whip was used in SEA it features in FMA
I know white crane schools who used it but don’t know how far it goes back
As I said before the whole 2 man tai chi pole works on borrowing strength
You don’t hit with the bounce it just takes it effortlessly to the point from which you attack
I have not spared a lot with live blades but have spared with some of the best
Then had them explain how their numerous hours of the real thing had taught them

[Bao]

How much experience you have with sword and shield combat?

I have never fought on a real battlefield and neither have you I presume.

The bian and dao are 90% similar in usage, particularly on "the battlefield" with other mele weapons and armor involved.

Not really, the dao's blade is a slicer, you don't hack with it in the same way as with an axe. Though most people believe so because they never learned to use it. But on the battlefield there's a difference, I can agree with that. When it was put it in the hands of peasants without any training, they also used it more or less as an axe. But again, this is not the purpose and intended function of the weapon.

What I'm describing is a technique that causes the opponent to have to block on both sides in a very short span of time, and with greater familiarity you can vary the angles to be almost any attack you like.

The sword breaker was never meant to use as a main weapon.

[Steve James]

The whip was used in SEA it features in FMA

Yeah, arnis and kali do have whips. I've never actually met someone in Pekiti, for ex, who teaches it. One reason, is that it takes up a lot of space. I used to braid whips, and I'd carry a snake whip while riding my bike -but they're a yard long. Fwiw, if you have some 1/4 or 1/2" cable, a 12" length is a fantastic dissuader.

Long whips are good for cracking, but only good as garrots on the subway.

[origami_itto]

Maybe I'm wrong but, from a practical perspective, I'm not sure a "sword breaker" attacked swords; rather, swords would break on them. That doesn't mean they were purely defensive; they were probably more effective as blunt force weapons, especially against armor.

Like Dao themselves, they came in many varieties, but the basic idea is a bar mace, a truncheon, a blunt force weapon that would break bones and other weapons through armor.

ORRRR a ceremonial nothing.

It seems the big question here is about the name "whip." Fwiw, I don't think the idea was anything like the traditional cowboy 'bull whip'. I'm not even sure that sort of whip was prevalent in Asia. It's not what's been pictured earlier as a bian. So, we're not talking about that. In terms of a whipping action, however, as wayne said, it's the body that's doing the whipping.

But, using the bull whip analogy, all the happens is that a force starts at a root (handle/body) and is transmitted to the tip (fingers). That sounds familiar. Afa the necessity of the whip needing to go backward before going forward, that's also a familiar tcc idea. I'll get flamed, but try to jump up without going down.

There are four completely different types of Chinese weapons called "bian" or whip.
https://18chineseweapons.blogspot.com/p/cane-whip.html
Tiě Biān (鐵鞭) - The Sword Breaker
Biān Gān (鞭杆) - Whip Cane
Liàn Biān (鏈鞭) - Chain Whip like "9-Section Whip" or Jiǔ Jié Biān (九節鞭).
and lesser known outside of China, leather whip (皮鞭), also called the "Shepherd's Whip" (牧羊鞭)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti4XZM-wB08

Here's another demo of it, along with the san jie bian.


In "Grand Master" you learn that Dong Ying Jie practiced a Sheperd's Whip and used it to defeat some bandits. Nobody in the family teaches it but some folks in China still practice it, like the ones above.

[Steve James]

Cool. Now Dan Bian is what kind of whip, specifically? My point was that it's not the shepherd's whip, and that we shouldn't say it's Not a "whip" because it isn't a shepherd's whip.

[origami_itto]

How much experience you have with sword and shield combat?

I have never fought on a real battlefield and neither have you I presume.

Well not for real stakes, but with realistically weighted weapons and armor in a variety of solo and groups trying to hit each other full force. Bones are broken, I have a permanent shoulder injury from blocking wrong.

And unlike a Chinese peasant from the feudal period, I got to make mistakes more than once!

Ideas about what to do when somebody is trying to hit you in the head are a lot different than the reality. That's a weakness in the traditional curriculum I hope I get to address at some point. Nobody is trying to actually hit each other with the weapons, they're largely symbolic.

The bian and dao are 90% similar in usage, particularly on "the battlefield" with other mele weapons and armor involved.

Not really, the dao's blade is a slicer, you don't hack with it in the same way as with an axe. Though most people believe so because they never learned to use it. But on the battlefield there's a difference, I can agree with that. When it was put it in the hands of peasants without any training, they also used it more or less as an axe. But again, this is not the purpose and intended function of the weapon.

Don't convince me, convince the ancient Chinese scholars who wrote the manuals for both and stated directly that the techniques are mostly the same.

What I'm describing is a technique that causes the opponent to have to block on both sides in a very short span of time, and with greater familiarity you can vary the angles to be almost any attack you like.

The sword breaker was never meant to use as a main weapon.

They are listed in Wubei Zhi as battlefield weapons.
How many weapons are you carrying on to the battlefield? How many pounds of backup you luggin to the front line? It adds up.

[origami_itto]

Cool. Now Dan Bian is what kind of whip, specifically? My point was that it's not the shepherd's whip, and that we shouldn't say it's Not a "whip" because it isn't a shepherd's whip.

Like I was saying in the article, the dan can refer to one hand or two hands on one weapon, so it may just refer to the "tong bei" idea of both arms being one limb.

My own wild theory is that the Wu family, who let's face it had a pretty strong hand in shaping Yang style, got rid of the Buddha's Warrior Attendant and leaned into the Taoist symbolism of the Zhao Gong Ming posture because Taoism was trendier than Buddhism at the time?

[Steve James]

What is the weapon held in the hand? Not the dan, but which of the bians?

[Bao]

What is the weapon held in the hand? Not the dan, but which of the bians?

The front hand is holding the sword breaker, the rear hand is holding a spear. The story is that General Dan parried his enemy's spear with his own spear, pulled up his sword breaker, smashed his enemy's chest and killed him. That is why you have the bian in "wrong" hand, or the left hand. The right hand holds the main weapon which is the spear.

Don't convince me, convince the ancient Chinese scholars who wrote the manuals for both and stated directly that the techniques are mostly the same.

Exactly what scholar or manual are you referring to?