Dan Bian: Dispelling Some Myths About Single Whip

[windwalker]

“WHAT IS IN A NAME”

Others countered that it is, after all, called Chen Style Taijiquan, so it should be included as part of the Internal Division. Master Wu Tunan did not concur. He felt that Chen Style should be treated as an external style, similar to Shaolin. Someone turned to Chen Fake, Master Chen, you are the standard bearer of the Chen Family, is it external or internal?

Chen Fake answered, If the revered master Wu thinks it is external, then it is external! We did not have this distinction at home. (Later on, in a remarkable reversal of logic, this statement was actually quoted by some as proof that Chen Style Taijiquan is not the original source of Taijiquan, since family member Chen Fake did not even acknowledge it as an internal style.)

[D_Glenn]

I don’t know if I’m wording it correctly. It’s an idea that you have a movement of one arm doing something, and that movement can attack someone in a qinna. And that exact same movement is also the counter move to that qinna.

You guys haven’t seen that video of Chen and Yang Taijiquan being done right next to each other? Oh man let me try to find it!

[D_Glenn]

Here it is

[Steve James]

I don't do Chen, but, I'd say the similarity afa SW is primarily in the final position (ding shi). Maybe it's because what leads to the Chen version is not GBT, and is more complex.
The Yang style shown is the classical YCF "family" style. There are plenty of other Yang versions that don't work quite the same.
Sometimes, the differences are like signatures of the style. When the final positions are photographed, they almost look the same, but work entirely differently.

Afa the qinna-anti-qinna aspects, I think moving correctly is automatically anti-qinna. Afa the CXW example with the hooked hand, I tend to think that it would work, but it's harder for me to imagine it as the purpose. For me, it's about the reason for pinching the fingers. It's not necessary to do so in order to 'hook' or use qinna. And, in some cases it might be a disadvantage.

Hey John W., what's the application for the hooked hand in longfist?

[Bao]

In this context it doesn't matter what the word can mean. Chinese is a contextual language and the meaning of a word in its context becomes specific. The name clearly refers to a solid sword breaker. If you interpret it as a "whip-like" movement/strength, then your understanding of the jin is completely wrong.

Have you ever used a mace, truncheon, or sword-breaker? You "snap" them, because they bounce when they hit something, and you want to take advantage of that to flow into your next strike. You also have to think about recovery, as it's too slow to recover if you miss when you take a heavy swing.

Just let us agree to disagree, that is if you mean snap as a pull back. When you hit with this kind of weapon you want to hit heavy, letting it really go through the target. It’s more like hitting with a hammer, you want the weapon to do the work. Not like using a whip.

[windwalker]

For me, it's about the reason for pinching the fingers. It's not necessary to do so in order to 'hook' or use qinna. And, in some cases it might be a disadvantage.

This might help to understand one way of looking at the why of hooked fingers .


We also use the same method based on the same theory, creating an empty space, the five fingers or brothers used to concentrate or pull the "qi"


This might help to understand one way of looking at the why of hooked fingers .


We also use the same method based on the same theory, creating an empty space, the five fingers or brothers used to concentrate or pull the "qi"





This teacher showing another way the way we practice it....

Different idea in use

[Steve James]

The first two vids are the same. They are cool as demos of how they use the hook (specifically the tip of the hook).
The third vid is of Wu style and I'm not sure how it relates, even though I can't understand the language. So, I'm not sure of how they show a similarity of application for the hand.

[windwalker]

The first two vids are the same. They are cool as demos of how they use the hook (specifically the tip of the hook).
The third vid is of Wu style and I'm not sure how it relates, even though I can't understand the language. So, I'm not sure of how they show a similarity of application for the hand.

get someone to translate for you,,,might make it a little clearer

[Kelley Graham]

In this context it doesn't matter what the word can mean. Chinese is a contextual language and the meaning of a word in its context becomes specific. The name clearly refers to a solid sword breaker. If you interpret it as a "whip-like" movement/strength, then your understanding of the jin is completely wrong.

Have you ever used a mace, truncheon, or sword-breaker? You "snap" them, because they bounce when they hit something, and you want to take advantage of that to flow into your next strike. You also have to think about recovery, as it's too slow to recover if you miss when you take a heavy swing.

Just let us agree to disagree, that is if you mean snap as a pull back. When you hit with this kind of weapon you want to hit heavy, letting it really go through the target. It’s more like hitting with a hammer, you want the weapon to do the work. Not like using a whip.

I've recently started an Everyday Movement playlist. I did this before reading this thread. Inside you whip, turn back early, outside you do what I pantomime in the video. Note the miss and recovery, that's one reason why you whip inside. Another reason is accept the rebound. The structural steel I'm bashing weighs well over 100 pounds. The hammer weighs 8 pounds, i think. I enjoy bashing things. The closest jin for this at impact is 'an', feels like squeeze and stretch or stretching squeeze. The miss and recovery feels like single whip.

[Steve James]

get someone to translate for you

Sure. Thanks. I'm sure they're saying exactly what you do.

[D_Glenn]

Is type of millermatic is that. I have a 180.

[Kelley Graham]

Is type of millermatic is that. I have a 180.

Nice. The Millermatic is just out of frame on the left, you can see the cart handle. That's a little 40A plasma cutter.

[D_Glenn]

Ah cool. I use to have the plasma cutter. We were probably using it over its capacity but we found that we still had to do almost the same amount of grinding after compared to using the cutting torch. I miss those days. So rewarding to easily and rapidly build stuff out of metal. But I don’t miss the fumes and the grinding dust.

[Kelley Graham]

Ah cool. I use to have the plasma cutter. We were probably using it over its capacity but we found that we still had to do almost the same amount of grinding after compared to using the cutting torch. I miss those days. So rewarding to easily and rapidly build stuff out of metal. But I don’t miss the fumes and the grinding dust.

Everyone uses plasmas at capacity. Yeah, messy. If we go back on topic, metalworking, or tool use is important for context. swordbreaking is a battlefield reality. Even the worst made sword, comprised of scrap potmetals, is difficult to break. The trapezoidal profiles of the swordbreakers will do the job if applied to the flat of the blade. A miss will break the edge. The skill is in getting the trapezoid corner to hit the flat near the handle. This way the blade wielder can't pivot away from your strike. Anyway, thought it interesting that swordbreaking came up during a time when I have a bunch of metal to break down for reuse.

[D_Glenn]

Bagua has a swordbreaker. I think it uses one in each hand. They were a tapering square-ish shape with a steel ball for the tip. Maybe golf ball sized. I think the combination of the two together somehow helped strong swords to not just chip but break.