Taijiquan and word usage "Tongbei": Anyone know?

[Steve James]

Hey, here's a vid about tbq with subtitles. I haven't finished it yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF6hL7_gi-c

[Bao]

Why the heck do they have a picture of Sun Lutang when they speak about Zhang Ce??? They are not THAT similar.

Zhang Ce:

[Steve James]

CCTV?

[origami_itto]

I don’t know how this Taiji movement actually moves but generally Tongbei is about using the whole upper back, mainly the shoulder blades, to move the whole arm, which naturally means that when one arm is forward then the other arm has to be back.

Fwiw, I agree. But, it's not absolute. In the diagrams above, it looks like Yang is moving forward. Imo, that's true because it is coming out of Needle at Sea Bottom. So, one has to imagine what is happening. What was the purpose of NASB?

I learned a Qinna application for that which is assisted by visualizing the line of force through their thumb down wrist joint into the lower dantien.

In general at the very least it's a pull down, could be an over the shoulder throw.

Anyway, as your right hand rises, it intercepts the opponent's right hand, attaches to it and 'nas' it to the rear while your left hand goes forward. That's why it looks like a fan opening, but the direction is forward.

If we're assuming one posture sets up the next then if there is a successful pull down in NASB they may be coming forward, or they may be coming forward to counter the attempt.

So one hand to take the arm or upper body and pull it up and further extended, exposing the ribs and liver for the other.

So one going up and back and the other going up an forward, spreading like a fan.

[Graculus]

There is some excellent wuxi tongbei here [youtube]https://youtu.be/SeFLqKV82Ao?si=-LyIvcS3K6qY0N-R[/youtube] courtesy of Guan Tieyun.
https://youtu.be/SeFLqKV82Ao?si=-LyIvcS3K6qY0N-R

He is showing usage and you can see very clearly that his crisp, springy motion results from a particular use of the torso. It is all ‘through the back’ in that sense. Although the moves and tactics have been developed to maximize the use of arm extension and shoulder rotation, I think it shows a clear relationship to IMA.

It is noticeable that his students/grand students show the same kind of expression in their movements.

Graculus
https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

[Bao]

Thank you for sharing, great channel. Some of the best videos I have watched in a long time.

[Steve James]

I just happened to find this vid. Some of the old time EFers might know or remember Strider Clark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cbej-3oxSEo

[twocircles13]

There are a lot of interesting comments here, and I’ll see if I can make time to respond to some of them in another post.

I’d like to focus on the meaning of tōng (通) in response to the OP.

My standard disclaimer: My comments are based on my instructional traditions, experiences, and research. I make no claim that these comments apply to any other branch of taijiquan, and more specifically, only apply to my own understanding and practice.

For us, tong is much more than just power coming from the back.

Modern dictionaries definitions and usages help us get some denotations and connotations of the term. Of course, being Chinese, there are layers of meaning in usage.

tōng Verb, to open, to go through; to open up by or clear out by poking or jabbing; to lead to, to go to; to connect, to communicate; to notify, to tell; to understand, to know; Noun, authority, expert; Adj., logical, coherent; general, common; all, whole.

The definitions I think most related to taijiquan are, to open, to go through and to connect, to communicate, although leading, clearing out, and understanding may have some implications too.

Esoterically, tong is an essential part of taijiquan instruction. There are lots of nouns used in talking about taijiquan, jin, qi, shen, yi, and so on. Tong is a verb describing a specific type of activation.

Esoteric usage: To go through: enter, pass through, and exit, as a pipe or hollow tube would allow. In energy and force, go through and exit, as through a conduit. To get internal power, otherwise to get movement. Tong is activation. Tong governs your thought processes. "To go through" governs your action processes. It's the opposite of stagnation.

Tong is associated with energy alignment and energy flow. "Flow" is a mistranslation of tong, however it is useful verbiage in English to get a kinesthetic feeling of activation. "Flow" is not flowing transitions from position to position. This meaning of flow is longitudinal (zòng, 纵) through the limbs and torso, as water through a pipe. It leads us to be able to sense our kinetic (force transfer) structure and later sense and manipulate our opponent's feet on the ground and his entire structure.

The old dojo trick the Unbendable Arm illustrates an effect of tong. However, at a beginning level, the technique is a trick. It is set up, so you can learn the technique. If your partner didn’t allow you, it wouldn’t work. But later on, with training, you become so good that your partner doesn’t know you already did it. At that time, it becomes a useful skill. As soon we contact, he already has lost.

Tongbeiquan, 通背拳, through the back boxing, is sometimes called tongbiquan, 通臂拳, through the arm boxing. I have thought that a good metaphor for skill development. You start with an arm, progress to an "unbendable" shoulder joint, shoulder girdle, and back. Of course, the rest of your body is similarly activated, and relaxation is key to allow “flow through” and exit.

I hope this is helpful.

[wayne hansen]

To penetrate entre drill
Like the Hsing I move
Swallow flies through the forest
Fan thru the back can’t be separated from the move before and the one to follow
Needle drops him down with pull down energy
Fan enters with split energy
Turn and chop casts him away or leads to a joint lock with folding energy

[johnwang]

Hammer fist, back fist, palm chop, ... all those circular striking is slower than those straight line strikes such as jab and cross. A straight line striking can be as fast as 1/4 second. Can a circular striking be as fast as 1/4 second?

What's the true combat value for those circular striking?

[wayne hansen]

Rotary engine beats pistons

[twocircles13]

Tongbei just means that the strength comes from the back (/spine).

...

Tongbeiquan arm idea of through the back

I learned the windmill arms exercise through Pigua Zhang. My primary, but not only, takeaway was the importance of relaxation of the arms, shoulders, and back as one drives with the core rotation.

Here’s the long answer: https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?p=494404&sid=6138d7d00432a42130c2bd7c0ef92d6b

I often agree with Sal's conclusions, but Tang Hao is just not a credible source.

That is a very long answer indeed. Unlike Bao, I often see the evidence that Sal C. presents and find myself drawing different conclusions.

A favorite saying of my Wutan teachers was, "Northern Chinese martial arts are all sons of the same mother." I expect , at the very least, to find a lot of cross pollination and parallel development rather than a single source.

The taijiquan - tongbeiquan connection has always been hypothesized and vague references have been made in old manuals. This theory received a huge boost with the Li Family Genealogy and companion documents from Tang Village and the Qianzai Temple. If authentic they established a clear connection to Tongbeiquan. However, although these documents received excited acceptance, at first, they do not seem to be holding up to scrutiny.

So, as much as I, personally, "like" their addition to history, they appear to be a fabrication, and we just can't accept them at this time without more concrete and verifiable evidence of their authenticity. Unfortunately, though Sal C. does not cite any of his sources, these documents were a linchpin for many of his claims and arguments of a connection to tongbeiquan. That connection is weakened, but there may still be a link.

Here is a discussion of the Li Family documents and related new findings on RSF.
https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... dd65284f1e

Also, unlike Bao and others, I do not dismiss Tang Hao's research out of hand. He is a product of his time, and his academic work seems to match the standards of his day. Like all scholars, our views are tinted by the lenses we wear. He is clearly seeking to modernize Chinese martial arts history, which had been mired in mythos. So, while I may not agree with all of his conclusions, I find no fault with his evidence, seeing no indications that he lied or fabricated evidence. Just consider his evidence and scrutinize his conclusions like all conclusions of all historians, and I think one can draw one's own conclusions.

In another post, or another time I’ll share evidence I see that connect Tongbeiquan and Taijiquan. Most of it is circumstantial, but it’s reasonable.

[twocircles13]

Hammer fist, back fist, palm chop, ... all those circular striking is slower than those straight line strikes such as jab and cross. A straight line striking can be as fast as 1/4 second. Can a circular striking be as fast as 1/4 second?

What's the true combat value for those circular striking?

It took me a second to figure out what you were referencing. It must be the Tongbeiquan video.

You must have had preconceived ideas or didn’t watch the video.

While you have a point about the speed of straight-line striking, that’s not what he was doing. He was using a relaxed circular movement to clear blocks and other defenses. His strike is straight-line. Then, he shows some takedown options.

If you’ve never experience a relaxed clearing like this, they are hard to defend against.

[Bob]

Usage - sample size of 1

https://youtube.com/shorts/2XyHDvBrSc8? ... edQwIXDjP6

[Steve James]

"Northern Chinese martial arts are all sons of the same mother."

I was taught the rest of that sentence was "So all martial artists are brothers." Now, that's a big haha.

Afa as the straight v circular, it's yang and yin. Ime, tcc definitely has both. Some cmas have focused on specific aspects/qualities, but the idea of brotherhood often resulted in arts being taught side by side. For ex., I haven't heard it recently, but students of xingyi also learned bagua and vice versa. I was told that baji and pigua students often did the same. Yet, both are fairly complete on their own.

Anyway, Fedor nor Frazier were famous for straight punches, and neither is Tyson. Imo, it's a matter of effectively transmitting energy/force (in a relaxed way). Have you ever had a toddler accindentally swing his arm into your groin? There are many movements in the tcc form that can use swing. Of course, the opposite/complement is point.