the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

So I was looking up a few things on Baidu on some of the many unknown teachers of the past that no one has heard of outside of the mainland
and came across a passage that stated: "The current schools of taijiquan (Yang, Wu, Woo, Sun, etc) all have the term 'Tongbei' in various configurations but few seem
to know, understand or grasp its significance per usage! Chen style retains the name "Shuang Tongbei" in some circles but many concentrate on the character 'Shan'
Wu style, in it use of the word "Fan Tongbei' concentrates on the "Fan' element (character) and others dropped a stroke of the character "Tong"
and renamed it 'San Yong Bei' Another uses the term ' San Yong Bei' where San/Three is not counted but the name has survived and very few, if any
are capable of understanding the concept.

Anyone familiar with what I appear to be talking! about or I am spitting at the Heavens and saying nothing?

NOTE: Tongbeiquan is the art initially referenced and stated to be an origin of taijiquan but many principles of the past got lost over centuries and I am trying to
understand the Tongbei meaning. The meaning, from my understanding of the translated word appears to be referencing yangsheng elements with martial undertones/usage. I can see the character and at times missing strokes but I cannot understand the meaning. I realize that due to the change to simplified
strokes in the current language, many of the concepts of old have lost their meaning, or have a different level of understanding.

Sounds like another Chat GPT post
Or maybe I’m just a bit thick

I don’t know if the characters are the same, but Chen taiji has a posture named Shan tong bei, 閃通背, flash through back. To say that indicates taiji came from tong bei is pretty far fetched.

robert wrote:I don’t know if the characters are the same, but Chen taiji has a posture named Shan tong bei, 閃通背, flash through back. To say that indicates taiji came from tong bei is pretty far fetched.

Not from the posture Shan Tong Bei, but is known that the ancestor of the Chen Family, Chen Bu was originally from Hongdong in Shanxi Province (山西), before he relocated to Henan Province (Chenbuzhuang later Chenjiagou). Hongdong has also a Tongbeiquan lineage and there has been some research on this connection in the past few years. But who knows, we haven't been there.

yeniseri wrote:So I was looking up a few things on Baidu on some of the many unknown teachers of the past that no one has heard of outside of the mainland
and came across a passage that stated: "The current schools of taijiquan (Yang, Wu, Woo, Sun, etc) all have the term 'Tongbei' in various configurations but few seem
to know, understand or grasp its significance per usage! Chen style retains the name "Shuang Tongbei" in some circles but many concentrate on the character 'Shan'
Wu style, in it use of the word "Fan Tongbei' concentrates on the "Fan' element (character) and others dropped a stroke of the character "Tong"
and renamed it 'San Yong Bei' Another uses the term ' San Yong Bei' where San/Three is not counted but the name has survived and very few, if any
are capable of understanding the concept.

Anyone familiar with what I appear to be talking! about or I am spitting at the Heavens and saying nothing?

NOTE: Tongbeiquan is the art initially referenced and stated to be an origin of taijiquan but many principles of the past got lost over centuries and I am trying to
understand the Tongbei meaning. The meaning, from my understanding of the translated word appears to be referencing yangsheng elements with martial undertones/usage. I can see the character and at times missing strokes but I cannot understand the meaning. I realize that due to the change to simplified
strokes in the current language, many of the concepts of old have lost their meaning, or have a different level of understanding.

This is like putting a square peg in a square hole.

If you are aware of the vast amount of information surrounding the word "tongbei" you will have seen it in enough places that it makes sense to you why it is included in Taijiquan as the name of a move.

To wit, many arts have moves named like this, and some of the names are slightly different -- as you have noticed.

However, what you did not (I think) see is that some of the other names are more descriptive. What happened is the same as qi jiguang's postures. They are amalgamations -- developments -- unifications -- collections -- i.e. sifu sets.

Some just caught on more than others.

Tongbei just means that the strength comes from the back (/spine).

Bao wrote:Tongbei just means that the strength comes from the back (/spine).

Yeah, but it's the how that makes it different in each art. It's a specific idea. It's like there is a weight in each hand and the arms are like ropes. It's possible to do SW with "the tongbei idea." In fact, maybe Jarek or Miro might be able to confirm the existence of tongbei taijiquan.

Afa tjq and the names it uses. Most have to come from pre-existing styles and ideas. For ex, take 'kao' or shoulder or 'jou' elbow, I think they can be used in a baji way. Yeah, I know the purists will complain that it's no longer tjq.

Tongbeiquan arm idea of through the back

Steve James wrote:

Bao wrote:Tongbei just means that the strength comes from the back (/spine).

Yeah, but it's the how that makes it different in each art. It's a specific idea. It's like there is a weight in each hand and the arms are like ropes. It's possible to do SW with "the tongbei idea." In fact, maybe Jarek or Miro might be able to confirm the existence of tongbei taijiquan.

Afa tjq and the names it uses. Most have to come from pre-existing styles and ideas. For ex, take 'kao' or shoulder or 'jou' elbow, I think they can be used in a baji way. Yeah, I know the purists will complain that it's no longer tjq.

Tongbeiquan arm idea of through the back
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqglwyKOydU

Not hard to "prove". The Chen ("Tai Chi") family studied various styles, if I am not mistaken there were both Tongbei and Xingyi manuals discovered as belongings to the Chen family in Chenjiagou. Various Tai Chi, Bagua and Xingyi teachers across styles and schools have "Tongbei" exercises in their curriculum. Tongbei is just an idea and training method, the "style" has its focus on this principle. The methods that teaches you to stretch internally and externally directly from the spine and outwards. It teaches you to use a loose body without tension and obstacles.

now this is （probably）not about what the OP asking/wonder about, but anyway,for any TJQ fanatic who might be lucky to come around a skillful TBQ teacher should emediatly ask for instructions, TBQ will boost you up several levels on the TJQ ladder.
TJQ is TBQ as my teacher pointed out when i first met him, ” so im gonna teach you TBQ alongside TJQ and you will quickly get it”...Well something like that as i recall he said those many years ago - ”you have long arms, very good !” he continued :）

Trick wrote:TJQ is TBQ as my teacher pointed out when i first met him, ”so im gonna teach you TBQ alongside TJQ and you will quickly get it”

I wouldn't say that Taijiquan IS Tongbei. But definitely to some parts. Tongbei aligns neatly with beginner and intermediate levels of Taijiquan. It resembles large frame practice that teaches the student to open up the body and joints. In application they can also be quite similar. But in advanced levels, IME, the two arts differ a lot.

Just from observation I think how we open the joints in TCC differs from Tong Bei
They seem to extend the joints where we make mobile the joint rotation

wayne hansen wrote:Just from observation I think how we open the joints in TCC differs from Tong Bei
They seem to extend the joints where we make mobile the joint rotation

Both, the move Fan Through Back would be typical of a tbq idea. At least, there's nothing specifically tjq about that move, or Needle at Sea Bottom. I'd argue there's nothing specific to tjq outside of GBY. Iow, one can find the exact movement in an older art. The fists in Two Fists Strike Temples are phoenix fists. Imo, the names of the movements give away their influences.

Here’s the long answer: https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?p=494404&sid=6138d7d00432a42130c2bd7c0ef92d6b

D_Glenn wrote:Here’s the long answer: https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?p=494404&sid=6138d7d00432a42130c2bd7c0ef92d6b

I often agree with Sal's conclusions, but Tang Hao is just not a credible source.

Regards fan thru back and needle
Just because they look the same doesn’t mean they are used the same
It is how tai chi uses it that makes the difference
Most tai chi people use fan in a very simplistic manner