Create a new form that meet those requirements

[johnwang]

This thread has nothing to do with MA style. You have a toolbox that contain N tools. Instead of polishing tool 1, tool 2, ..., tool N, you link it into a logic sequence so you can polish all of your tools in 1 sequence.

Please notice that I use the word polish instead of train. IMO, you can polish your tools solo, but you need a partner to train.

[edededed]

I tried for a while, but it's actually quite hard. Here is my current form (version 0.1).

1. Enter to intercept (grab/zuan)
2. Downward strike (pi)
3. Parry down
4. Straight/level strike (beng/)
5. Parry up
6. Upward strike (pao/chongchui)
7. Parry side
8. Sideways strike (heng / buchui)
9. Step to kick leg (furenjiao)
10. Side kick
11. Step forward to front kick
12. Sweep inside leg (jiutui/chatui)
13. Funny angle kick (yuanyangjiao)
14. Retreat to stance

The idea is to combine common combinations together, but in a way that is not style-specific - e.g. one can do this in a longfist way, a mantis way, a xingyi way, etc.

The 1st half is just hand techniques - this part is fairly straightforward.
The 2nd half is just kicks - this is harder, since kicks actually have a lot of variation. Another aspect is - is it better to practice kicks only, or combine them with hands? (In this version, some handwork is implied with the legs.)

Edit: oops, forgot to write the side parry + strike (7 and 8) - so added it in now.

[johnwang]

I tried for a while, but it's actually quite hard. Here is my current form (version 0.1).

1. Enter to intercept (grab/zuan)
2. Downward strike (pi)
3. Parry down
4. Straight/level strike (beng/)
5. Parry up
6. Upward strike (pao/chongchui)

Very similar to the one I created. It contains Xing Yi, praying mantis, and long fist.

1. Uppercut (Zuan)
2. Downward palm strike (Pi) with reverse side kick (dragon)
3. Downward block punch (Beng)
4. Inside out block/grab and punch
5. Upward block and punch (Pao)
6. Downward block and punch
7. Comb hair, palm strike, heel kick, Hammer fist
8. Gou-Lou-Cai Shou punch (double switch hands)
9. Toes kick with punch
10. Heel kick with punch.
11. hook punch, vertical back fist, overhand
12. vertical back fist, horizontal back fist, roundhouse kick
13. Turn side kick
14. Grab/pull palm strike

[windwalker]

no demos...lots of writing

[nicklinjm]

This has really got me thinking, what moves I would put in a 'top 10 high percentage' set....Ed / JW, would love to see these combo sets you have put together!

[twocircles13]

Can you create a new form that meet the following requirements?

1. Move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ...
2. All basic punches are included.
3. All basic kicks are included.
4. All basic blocks are included.
5. No duplicated technique.
6. Between 16 to 20 moves.

The 1st requirement could be the most challenged. The 5th requirement can also be challenged. Would you like to try to create one and share your creation here?

Well, you're not looking for a taijiquan form with those requirements.

1. The form in my taijiquan instructional tradition (and many other taijiquan forms) is set up to anticipate failure. That is, Move 1 fails, go to Move 2. It fails go to Move 3 and so on. Why would you need multiple successful moves in the form? Continuous attacks is one of the things push hands trains. And, to the best of my knowledge, my bajiquan form is also not set up like that because it expects one well setup strike to injure the opponent severely enough that the conflict will be over. Pao Chui in taijiquan is set up the same way for the most part, its follow-up movements are more focused on multiple attackers.

2. Again, you are not looking for a primary taijiquan form, which is about control not strikes, until you get to the secondary form, Pao Chui, in my case, then, taiji-specific striking methods are taught. Bajiquan on the other hand, includes lots of strikes.

3. The first Taijiquan form does have an array of kicks, but more as basic training for kicks. Most are too high to be useful.

4. Taijiquan has its own “blocking” method, which is more like parrying used in some fencing styles, so it doesn’t use the standard blocking techniques used in many other martial arts.

5.There really aren’t duplicate movements in the taijiquan form. In the books, to save space and printing costs, they would say same as movement #nn. But they are not really. Sometimes, direct instruction, there are variations in stepping or an alternate application is taught. If it is otherwise identical, the setup entry or exit or both are usually different.

6. 16-20 Movements seems like an arbitrary number. For chunking (a short-term memory aid), up to 7, 9 max is standard. So, if you are going to break up the form anyway, a longer form to include most of those other requirements can be quite doable. The primary taijiquan form was originally divided up Into 13 sections, so a 64 to 78 movement form would have, on average, 4 to 6 movements. Even a 108 movement form would average less than 9 movements per section.

Thanks for allowing me to share my perspective on this topic.

[johnwang]

Well, you're not looking for a taijiquan form with those requirements.

If you have cross trained Taiji, Xing Yi, long fist, praying mantis, when you create a self-training form, why do you want it to be a Taiji form, Xing Yi form, long fist form, or praying mantis form? Should you create a mixed form instead?

Move 1 fails, go to Move 2.

That's exactly what I mean. If your 1st technique kills your opponent, you don't need the 2nd technique.

In this clip, the 1st technique shin bite fails. The 2nd technique reverse shin bite also fails. the 3rd technique foot sweep succeeds. Your technique fails because your opponent steps back, of because he blocks your attack.



At 1.40, his foot sweep fail, he continues with next throw. So, if we start from

shin bite - reverse shin bite - foot sweep - front cut - ...

A throwing form that move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ... can be created.

Why do you want to do this? Because so far nobody has ever done this before.



I have tried to do this almost 30 years ago.

1. 扣 Knee seizing (KOU)
2. 踢 Forward kick (TI)
3. 撿 Foot picking (JIAN)
4. 彈 Spring (TAN)
5. 掛 Inner heel sweep (GUA)
6. 管 Control (GUAN)
7. 刀 Inner sickle (DAO)
8. 揣 Overhead (CHUAI)
9. 切 Front cut (QIE)
10. 挑 Hooking kick (TIAO)
11. 蹩 Block (BIE),
12. 纏 Twist (CHAN),
13. 搵 Waist Lift (WEN),
14. 合 Inner hook (HE)
15. 摟 Outer Hook (LOU)
16. 掰 Split (BAI)
17. 掏 Inner knee seizing (TAO)
18. 裏 Back inner hook (LI)
19. 撞 Trunk hitting (ZHUANG)
20. 靠 Advance squeeze (KAO)
21. 崩 Cracking (BENG)
22. 挽 Send forward (WAN)
23. 捆 Tie (KUN)
24. 抱 Embrace (BAO)

[twocircles13]

Well, you're not looking for a taijiquan form with those requirements.

If you have cross trained Taiji, Xing Yi, long fist, praying mantis, when you create a self-training form, why do you want it to be a Taiji form, Xing Yi form, long fist form, or praying mantis form? Should you create a mixed form instead?

Move 1 fails, go to Move 2.

That's exactly what I mean. If your 1st technique kills your opponent, you don't need the 2nd technique.

In this clip, the 1st technique shin bite fails. The 2nd technique reverse shin bite also fails. the 3rd technique foot sweep succeeds. Your technique fails because your opponent steps back, of because he blocks your attack.

...

At 1.40, his foot sweep fail, he continues with next throw. So, if we start from

shin bite - reverse shin bite - foot sweep - front cut - ...

A throwing form that move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ... can be created.

Why do you want to do this? Because so far nobody has ever done this before.

...

I have tried to do this almost 30 years ago.

1. 扣 Knee seizing (KOU)
2. 踢 Forward kick (TI)
3. 撿 Foot picking (JIAN)
4. 彈 Spring (TAN)
5. 掛 Inner heel sweep (GUA)
6. 管 Control (GUAN)
7. 刀 Inner sickle (DAO)
8. 揣 Overhead (CHUAI)
9. 切 Front cut (QIE)
10. 挑 Hooking kick (TIAO)
11. 蹩 Block (BIE),
12. 纏 Twist (CHAN),
13. 搵 Waist Lift (WEN),
14. 合 Inner hook (HE)
15. 摟 Outer Hook (LOU)
16. 掰 Split (BAI)
17. 掏 Inner knee seizing (TAO)
18. 裏 Back inner hook (LI)
19. 撞 Trunk hitting (ZHUANG)
20. 靠 Advance squeeze (KAO)
21. 崩 Cracking (BENG)
22. 挽 Send forward (WAN)
23. 捆 Tie (KUN)
24. 抱 Embrace (BAO)

@johnwang, I’ve got a couple of thoughts for you. That list seems like a great start to the form you propose, and creating such a list is probably a good thought exercise.

What you are talking about seems to me is the old definition of chángquán (长拳). Before some time in the 20th century when someone decided Changquan meant long-range boxing, and someone else decided longfist was a classifier of Wushu forms, chángquán meant a complete martial art, all the strikes, all the kicks, all the throws and so on, combined in a complete system that might consist of one or more forms. In Li Yilu’s Taiji Classics, when the author refers to Taijiquan being chángquán, this is what he is meaning.

A second thought is that I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.
Hong Junsheng went through the process of breaking down all the movements from the forms he learned from Chen Fake into their essential movements. He found about 20. These may b a little more complex than the movements you listed, but they also just reduce down into one of two spirals for each arm, each leg and the torso. However, he kept their traditional names.

1. Jingang Daodui: Jingang Pounds Pestle
2. Lan Ca Yi: Block Touching Coat.
3. Liufeng Sibi: Six Sealing and Four Closing
4. Dan Bian: Single Whip
5. Baihe Lianchi: White Crane Spreads Its Wings
6. Louxi Aobu: Brush the Knee in Twisted Step.
7. Chushou, Daojuanhong: Initial Closing and Step Back to Whirl Arms.
8. Yanshou Gongchui: Fist Covering the Hand.
9. Shizi Shou: Cross Hands
10. Bei Zhekao: Lean With Back
11. San Huan Zhang: Change Palm Three Times.
12. Shan Tong Bei: Flash the Back
13. Yun Shou: Cloud Hands
14. Gao Tan Ma: High Pat on Horse
15. Chajiao and Dengjiao: Reach with Foot and Kick with Foot.
16. Diecha: Fall into a Split.
17. Duli: Stand on One Leg
18.  Zhou: Elbows
19. Zhanshou: Cut Hands
20. Fang Hua Wu Xiu: Turning Flowers and Play with Sleeves.

[johnwang]

I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.

I look at this as a challenge whether I can do this or not. To throw a punch toward east and then to throw a punch toward north is easy. To use move n to set up move n + 1 is not easy. You have to understand how your opponent may counter your move n. It forces you to think much deeper.

For example, you may understand how to use "single whip". But not everybody may understand how to counter "single whip".

[origami_itto]

I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.

I look at this as a challenge whether I can do this or not. To throw a punch toward east and then to throw a punch toward north is easy. To use move n to set up move n + 1 is not easy. You have to understand how your opponent may counter your move n. It forces you to think much deeper.

For example, you may understand how to use "single whip". But not everybody may understand how to counter "single whip".

The wu family writing gets into a bit of detail about this, specifically which of the 8 gates is best against each other.

It's less about the shape and more about the energy. Use pull-down to defeat ward off and use shoulder to defeat pull down, etc.

When I learned applications for the long form, we learned each part of each move as an attack, and then the partner would do a corresponding defense, and we'd learn the next attack that would negate the defense.

So "how to counter 'single whip'", okay... what part of single whip used in what way?

There's a whole partner form that barely anyone does that has full countering and counter-countering for every move the whole way through. It's exhaustive and expansive and most folks just take pieces of it as drills.

At the end of the day, the more attacks and counters I learn the more generalized they become. I want to avoid preconceptions and patterns and low hanging fruit.

I forget which what the "wide" vs "narrow" art is, but really, ultimately, Taijiquan is the kind that is based on a small number of principles, not a large vocabulary of attacks and counters.

An infinite number of counters arise from the principles, but pinning them down into "when they do this, I do this" will pigeonhole you. Which is great for specialization, not gonna lie.

[windwalker]

I forget which what the "wide" vs "narrow" art is, but really, ultimately, Taijiquan is the kind that is based on a small number of principles, not a large vocabulary of attacks and counters.

An infinite number of counters arise from the principles, but pinning them down into "when they do this, I do this" will pigeonhole you.
Which is great for specialization, not gonna lie.

“A “narrow” system is one that specifies a particular response for a particular attack. So for every possible attack, there is a specific response.

And because there are a great many possible attacks, there are also a great may specific techniques to counter them. With “narrow” systems, you have A LOT of techniques — like the proverbial 108 hand techniques, for instance.

A “wide” system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them. So for instance, you might only have 5 or 6 basic punches… but many “changes” associated with those punches. See also Baqua, with it’s emphasis on changes.

The way to learn how to use a wide system (like White Crane) is then to gain experience with using the limited number of techniques you have available, in a wide assortment of attacks. In other words, you have to use the techniques in sparring… a lot of sparing… so you can learn how a single punch can be used against multiple attack patterns”

Mike Staples

[johnwang]

A “wide” system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them.

When your opponent sweeps your leg, you can

- bend knee and let his sweeping foot to pass under.
- change into a bow-arrow stance and use your shin bone to meet his sweeping leg.

So, you have at least 2 different counters for foot sweep.

When your opponent applies head lock on you, you can

- use your free hand to wipe his forehead to force his head to bend back.
- crack his waist wrapping arm.
- stick your body behind his body.
- push his leg behind his knee and force him down.
- spin your body with him and drag him down to the ground.
- move your body in front of him and apply hip throw on him.
- ...

So you have at least 6 different ways to counter a head lock.

There are over 230 different throws. The total number of counters can be over 800. A counter for foot sweep won't work to counter a head lock.

[windwalker]

A “wide” system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them.

When your opponent sweeps your leg, you can

- bend knee and let his sweeping foot to pass under.
- change into a bow-arrow stance and use your shin bone to meet his sweeping leg.

So, you have at least 2 different counters for foot sweep.

When your opponent applies head lock on you, you can

- use your free hand to wipe his forehead to force his head to bend back.
- crack his waist wrapping arm.
- stick your body behind his body.
- push his leg behind his knee and force him down.
- spin your body with him and drag him down to the ground.
- move your body in front of him and apply hip throw on him.
- ...

So you have at least 6 different ways to counter a head lock.

There are over 230 different throws. The total number of counters can be over 800. A counter for foot sweep won't work to counter a head lock.

Your requirements and thoughts "neatly" illustrating what is meant by a narrow system viewpoint.


Both approaches good, depending on ones outlook and practice...

[everything]

what would you say boxing is? probably "wide"? how about bjj? probably "narrow"? it seems like the ultimate in 1,000 counters and 1,000 counter-counters.

but if you put it in mma? probably "wide" for the most part (following 80/20 rules). you get experts at bjj or sambo like anderson silva or fedor who end up just using superior striking and "high percentage" takedowns. nobody can really say they probably don't know the 1,000 counters. but you don't see them use those. you do see a guy like jon jones (probably p4p best of all time) throwing unexpected things (but not as counters as much as attacks afaik).

[johnwang]

- In striking art, as long as you can keep a safe distance from your opponent, none of his techniques will work on you.
- In wrestling art, after the clinch has been established, you need to know how to deal with it. You need to use the right key to open the right lock. There exists no master key that can open all locks. For example, the counter to "leg lift" is to "ride on it". This counter "ride on it" only works for "leg lift" and nothing else.