the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

johnwang wrote:- In wrestling art, after the clinch has been established, you need to know how to deal with it. You need to use the right key to open the right lock. There exists no master key that can open all locks. For example, the counter to "leg lift" is to "ride on it". This counter "ride on it" only works for "leg lift" and nothing else.

That's the weakness in arts that evolve in tandem, complementary techniques that don't mean much outside that context.

What about skeleton keys?

The idea with Taijiquan's 8 gates is that they are QUALITIES of energy/force combined with the 5 methods or attitudes of dealing with the opponent.

All the different moves and techniques are just applied examples of these qualities and attitudes, so you can cut the key to the lock in real time with the pieces instead of being stuck with whatever you thought to make ahead of time.

johnwang wrote:
- In wrestling art, after the clinch has been established, you need to know how to deal with it

Yep

Footing, footwear and ground are equally important factors of one's awareness as everything else having to do with tactics and technical skill.

The most sterile environment to train and spar with either shoes or bare feet is on mats. Everything changes when the sparring is done on different types of ground - asphalt, loose gravel, grass, sand, hardwood...etc.

Footwear on those different types of ground should also factor into one's overall awareness - especially if one's tendency is to apply explosive movement in attacks and counters. I've seen shoes (skaters, sneakers,...) come off of peoples' feet while training/sparring on grippy surfaces - and in real-life scraps. One shoe on and one shoe off is an interesting set-up while starting from an already compromised position.

Then there's the prospect of impacts on hard surfaces being quite dangerous for both people in all kinds of drops, throws, takedowns and/or standing counters. Wrestling is most safely explored on mats with the awareness of how the bodies are making contact with the ground being as important as everything else. One example - tomoe nage on hard, unyielding surfaces can be a thing of beauty if one practices keeping their chin tucked and not over-rotating on their follow-through, or a serious head injury/KO if they don't.

origami_itto wrote:What about skeleton keys?

Assume both A and B have right side forward. If A's right-hand grabs on B's right wrist, what can be the "skeleton key" to open that lock?

johnwang wrote:

origami_itto wrote:What about skeleton keys?

Assume both A and B have right side forward. If A's right-hand grabs on B's right wrist, what can be the "skeleton key" to open that lock?

Depends on the context. Could be "needle at sea bottom" for example.

The Qi na principle would be to turn our own arm to orient their hand so the pinky side is on top and then apply downward pressure into the joint.

Or maybe you want to just pull away opposite the tiger's mouth.

Maybe you want to lead their arm across their chest and step behind their legs to turn it into a hip throw. Maybe pull into their forward weak angle and then attack the midsection with a push.

How long is a piece of string?

nicklinjm wrote:This has really got me thinking, what moves I would put in a 'top 10 high percentage' set....Ed / JW, would love to see these combo sets you have put together!

It's proving challenging to really finalize this form... but I think that the exercise provides value also in making one think deeper about the forms that one learned already!

Bagua is structured in a manner where movements are learned and trained in order from Large Circle to Small Circle. Large Circle movements and methods can have 6-10 different applications for a movement. While really Small Circle movements have only 1, maybe 2 applications. The Snake Kan Trigram has an unlimited number of forms because each form is a specific sequence of actions. Because it’s so binding and constricting that there’s only 1 counter move, if the opponent does that then the next action in the sequence happens. It’s sort of like making forms from a BJJ match, only since it’s happening while standing upright, there’s less ways of countering something.

Point being that a form should factor in Large Circle and Small, or have a Progression, which is a natural way that fights can evolve- kick to punch to clinch.

johnwang wrote:- In striking art, as long as you can keep a safe distance from your opponent, none of his techniques will work on you.
- In wrestling art, after the clinch has been established, you need to know how to deal with it. You need to use the right key to open the right lock. There exists no master key that can open all locks. For example, the counter to "leg lift" is to "ride on it". This counter "ride on it" only works for "leg lift" and nothing else.

what are the "principles" that are "abstracted" from those 1,000 or 2,000 examples?

like judo's "if pushed pull; if pulled, push" type of saying.

everything wrote:what are the "principles" that are "abstracted" from those 1,000 or 2,000 examples?

撕(Si) - Tearing
崩(Beng) - Cracking
捅(Tong) - Striking push
褪(tun) - Hand pushing
肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing
蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking
分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking
圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
抹(Mo) – Wiping
偏(Pian) – Head circling
夾(Jia) – Clamping head
摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
摀(Wu) – Face covering
速(Su) – Forehead push
墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
撈 (Lao) – Leg seize
環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
撒(Sa) – Casting
飄(Piao) - Floating hand
...

Example, 墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop:

one way chatGPT attempted to categorize is "hand", "body", "joint" techniques. not sure if that's correct.

it also tried:

apply
- generate force (push/strike)
- absorb/redirect

manipulate
- disrupt
- control

resist
- counter-act
- evade

everything wrote:one way chatGPT attempted to categorize is "hand", "body", "joint" techniques. not sure if that's correct.

Chinese wrestling uses 4 sides and 2 doors category.

You use your right leg to attack the:

1st side - outside of your opponent's right leg.
2nd side - inside of your opponent's right leg.
3rd side - inside of your opponent's left leg.
4th side - outside of your opponent's left leg.

front door - your back touches your opponent's chest.
back door - your chest touches your opponent's back.

Form sets, drills and other physical training exercises are the lesser half of any internal martial art when compared to the mental programming and intrinsic energy cultivation. As such, the external physical aspects of form postures and their sequential arrangement is far less relevant than the discernable internal results and benefits of the training, imo. ymmv.